When did you start to feel that parental attachment?

[user1479136681]

I still feel like I'm babysitting someone else's kid. When did you feel like your LO was actually 'yours'?

Jellycatspyjamas

"It feels manipulative, and probably is to some extent in that she had years of having to manipulate people into feeding her, or meeting any of her needs. I hold that constantly in mind that for her life has been about doing whatever she could to just get enough food, or to be acknowledged in any way amongst a group of siblings all trying to do the same."

These are such good points.

"She won’t unlearn that easily and will always revert back to that behaviour when she feels unsafe - it kept her alive at one point."

So true. I wonder if it is necessary not just to 'unlearn' things, but to learn new things in their place.

I think there is a saying Nature abhors a vacuum, so when we leave something blank, what comes next. maybe have to give a new skill to replace the old skill?

"I see times when she seems to be manipulative as signs that she’s struggling - the two aren’t mutually exclusive, and I know it’s not her intent to manipulate, her intent is to have her perceived needs met - there’s no malice in it." So good to be reminded of this. I am in danger of re-posting yoru whole post as you are so bloomin' wise!

Thank you @Italiangreyhound, it’s so hard sometimes to remember that behaviour is always communication - especially as they get bigger and cab voice some of it too. I’m by no means perfect, keeping all this in mind helps me not loose my temper or feel frustrated at my girl, there are days I could cry with frustration (and days that I do), but keep coming back to this being as much an outcome of her trauma as a broken bone might be and I wouldn’t blame her for that.

And yes, I do think there are new things to learn to replace the old, change is slow, but it’s there.

One of the reasons I keep engaging with ongoing support in the real world and online is because it reminds me there are reasons for this behaviour. It's not just being naughty etc.

My favourite image is the fountain! The splashes of water are the behavioid; fed by the column of water, which is the feeling/emotions. This is fed by the reserve of water at the base of the fountain, which is the needs.

Keep addressing just the behaviour and you don't get the roots!

It doesn't mean we can (even if we want to) ignore behaviour but I do find it helps to explain so much.

I can relate to all of that - DD1 is an expert manipulator because she HAD to control and manipulate adults in order to survive. And as I have said before, I think she will always be a bit controlling in relationships because - at a very fundamental level - not being in control feels like a threat to her existence. That has become hard wired into her reactions.

It is that knowledge that enables me, as the adult, to carry on responding in a loving way towards her, whatever feelings that have been triggered in me by her behaviour. On an instinctive level I react to being manipulated, of course, that's only natural and healthy. But I over ride that instinct by what I know.

Which is why schmockle's theory of 'love connection' (which I haven't come across in any of my reading about parenting traumatised children) is so unhelpful.

Parenting a traumatised child messes with your head, because you have to over ride your healthy, functional emotional reactions in order to provide what your child needs. You have to provide endless amounts of care, warmth and positivity in the face of (what appears to be, and for some parents is) endless hostility, rejection and negativity.

@schmockle you might want to research 'blocked care', which often occurs when the child cannot manage the 'return'. That does 'block' the formation of a bond.

You know this article is talking about blocked care in terms of parents effectively “going through the motions”, not about children who struggle to accept care?

I think one of the most challenging things in parenting traumatised children is, as @Allington says, needing to constantly override your natural reactions to rejection, aggression and challenge to consistently offer love, care and affection. To not blame the child when they just can’t respond in the way we’d like them to, to not label and judge when they are dysregulated and when all the things that experts say will work don’t with our child, to look honestly at our feelings and how they might impact our care of our children. It’s so hard to know they have challenges in relationship and yet continue to offer them that safe, caring, loving space. But that’s the job, loving kids who have been hurt in loving relationships.

Yes, my point with blocked care was that the lack of a 'return' from the child does have an impact on the parent's ability to keep caring. I was disagreeing with the idea that the lack of warm, fuzzy feelings in a parent is inevitably damaging to a child. Some children find those feelings immensely threatening - good parenting is what you do, not what you feel

I think warm fuzzy feelings are about as far from parental love as you can get tbh, like the warm fuzzy feelings when you meet a new partner. The infatuation of young love. Those feelings feel real, and all encompassing but they settle down into a day by day commitment - love in action that is steady and mature, yes with moments of hearts and flowers but at its core a hard block of not giving up, seeing things through, working as a team, friendship, care and companionship.

I love my kids, and there are times they really melt my heart but my love is day by day care, support, discipline, boundaries, play and fun. In my experience love is 90% what you do which generates the warm and fuzzy not the other way around. The hormone fuelled rush of love for a newborn which stops us leaving them on the doorstep when they cry 24/7 gives way to a more mature care and confidence, and love grows in the mundane, routine, practical care. The difficulty with adoption is that we don’t get the hormone rush so are coming from a standing start.

Completely agree. As I said, I was challenging schmockle's claims on the need for a 'love connection'

@Jellycatspyjamas

Your post about your daughter brought a tear to my eye. You could have been describing my son. The problem is, because he is so handsome and masks so well, nobody else can see his needs the way I can. Leading us to a very lonely place.

I also agree with all that was said. I loved my boy from day one - the smack in the face overwhelming love and urge to protect but over time it became the steady every day love. One that is pushed to breaking point. To help me overcome those feelings and override the urge to walk away, I take lots of photos in the little moments of connection. And everyday, try to do something to help us connect even if he is pushing me away (because, he has told me at age 4, he doesn’t want to be happy).

The not being happy/being miserable/life not worth living really resonates with me. My boy is 9 and sometimes very solem and miserable. Then the next moment it is the best day ever because we have tea in the living room or I get him a bag of sweets.

I tell him often how much I love him, and I do. But it is hard. He is hard work. He is very negative and complains a lot.

He has a frequent commentary of how something is not fair/his sister is in the way/ his bag of sweets not big enough/his dinner not what he likes!

I've tried so much to get him to see the sunny side of life!

Any ideas?

I want him to be happy but I cannot make him happy. He has told me I am the worst mother in the world. It's very hard at times.

That’s painful. I’ve no answers for you but I can share a little about my son (aged 4).

He struggled to be happy. Happiness is alien to him and it’s something he has had to learn in a way he has never had to learn fear and sadness. Out of all the emotions, it’s the scariest one for him. The hardest to identify and certainly the hardest to feel. He would self harm when happy (swinging on a swing at a play park is a happy feeling so I must stop this feeling and let go. Mum just said I was doing great at riding my bike so I must crash into a lamp post, in having fun playing football so I must throw myself down etc) or deliberately sabotage a nice time (I’m having fun at the beach so I must throw sand in mums eyes, I need to hurt my sister at the park, I need to run onto the road when out walking the dog). Have you seen the same thing? Sounds like I like the sweets and really love my mum (I presume your female?!) for giving me then and I can’t feel happy so I will shout at her for not buying the biggest/right one? I am happy playing with my sister but I can’t be happy so I will complain? Only a thought.

Most of these times I describe with my son, it’s a time out together (or I roar at him!!). He is young enough to sit on my lap so that’s what we do. It’s so hard to not get angry (and I have become increasingly less able to over ride my own feelings as time passes). I don’t know if you can call your son out on his feelings. I do all the time. Why did you throw sand? Do you want to hurt me? I don’t think so. I think you want to leave because you are so happy you are starting to lose control and that’s scary for you. Ok we will leave but please use words rather Than actions next time.... you get my narrative? Problem is, I am alone in my crazy parenting style!

You are not alone

It is all too familiar. I have heard it described as 'teflon for the good things, velcro for the bad'.

If DD2 gets one maths problem wrong she has a complete meltdown, even when she has got the previous 20 right. She is useless, stupid, will never be able to do it... the one mistake overshadows everything. She remembers the times she loses a board game, not the equal number of times she won. If she has a minor argument with a friend, she is convinced that the friendship is over forever... and so on and so on.

Sarah121 you are vribibg tears to my eyes. Yes I am female. YES I can see some sabotage from ds.

"I have become increasingly less able to over ride my own feelings as time passes"

Yes I agree. I don't think your parenting style is crazy.

Arlington 're 'teflon for the good things, velcro for the bad'. Excellent way to put it! We are all quite similar!!!

@allingon, I don't mind you challenging what i have said but the research says that in fact the need for a love connection while growing up is absolutely vital and this is recognised by psychologists and psychiatrists.

What you are talking about (and what the article you linked talks about) is something different and i can see that this was discussed upthread. You were talking about the problems carers face in the face of rejection. The article you linked is about helping the carers, so that the carers help the children.

Bottom line is that growing up without love is incredibly debilitating and this is not given enough consideration in relation to policy and practice and expectations in relation to looked after/adopted children, not enough guidance about what could be done to mitigate the affects and help the child where a carer finds themselves unable to bond.

Growing up in any family situation without love is debilitating though there will be a sliding scale, for example in a normal situation there might be a grandparent or someone else who steps into the breach.

No individual here is being criticised.

A lack of love connection will affect school, other relationships, interests, well being, mental health, everything.

I don't think that an upbringing without love vs neglect/abuse is an acceptable choice, neither are acceptable, and if this is discussed/researched more, then what can be done is more likely to be discovered.

Sorry, that was @Allington

@121Sarah121 Why did you throw sand? Do you want to hurt me? I don’t think so. I think you want to leave because you are so happy you are starting to lose control and that’s scary for you. Ok we will leave but please use words rather Than actions next time.... you get my narrative? Problem is, I am alone in my crazy parenting style! I think you are really perceptive here about what is really happening, and the advice from the experts I think is to not let the behaviour control what you do in fact - so instead of leaving ("ok we will leave") you say things along the lines of "Everything is ok, I love you" and say what you think is going on ("I think this is really because you...") and validate or distract, start something new when you are. Over time, happy memories override the unhappy ones, and the level of contentment should then slowly go up. So that means keeping boundaries with him, talking about expected behaviour, but other than that ignoring it in the moment, keep on with the activity, and over time things will improve. Do things also which would make him happy in a calm way - such as reading to him or him drawing, or doing experiments together or whatever it is. Also there are physical things you can do together which will have a positive affect on his hormones raising happiness levels.

If I can find something which says it better/with more authority I will link it for you. It is really hard, but once you start to see glimmers of happiness and recognition, it gets easier.

I don't think asking him questions ("Why did you do that") or imposing expectations ("Next time can you use a word") will help, it might make him feel worse even if it is reasonable. I think the advice is to react to what you think is really going on, ie what is really being communicated, rather than what he is doing or saying.

where you are not when you are.

@allington sorry I missed another of your posts: I was disagreeing with the idea that the lack of warm, fuzzy feelings in a parent is inevitably damaging to a child. Some children find those feelings immensely threatening - good parenting is what you do, not what you feel

I haven't used the words warm, fuzzy, what I wrote was "connection isn't to do with whether a child responds in a sort of throw the ball back way, more to do with the child feeling that they are very understood by their adult, that they are being helped to understand themselves and how they fit with the world, that their adult has their back completely and will mostly know the best thing to do for them, because they know them well. And the long term relationship will grow from that." So that is quite different from what you thought I was saying?

It is pretty normal to not feel the warm glow of love or anything in particular all of the time. But where you have parents saying in a global way "I don't love my child" and this is a situation which lasts days and months, and no one is stepping into the breach, and yes this does happen, then yes this is a problem.

@Allington - your poor daughter!! It sounds as though her self esteem is so low. That is absolutely heart wrenching as a mother to see. You know she is amazing and if only she could see herself the way you do - she would be bursting with pride and happiness. Unfortunately, our kids are so overwhelmed with the sadness that goes on in their life that they can’t see it. I’m sure with your continued love and support, she will see her own value.
@Italiangreyhound unfortunately, for whatever reason, way beyond my understanding, sabotage and manipulation are common amongst our children. It happens for a reason which isn’t always clear. Sometimes happiness is a too strong an emotion.

@schmockle I understand what you are saying but it is just one theory (or which they are many). What if my son has become dysregulated due to the intensity of his emotions and has triggered the fight response? Regardless of what I say, he will never hear a word due to the language part of the brain being shut down? Maybe by keeping him in a situation that has become so overwhelmingly difficult that his brain stem has taken over I am adding to the difficulties. Maybe I need to take over and get him to a place of safety? Maybe I am that place of safety? Who knows? I am a parent learning the most complex little boy and together we are muddling through

@schmockle there is no point in looking at the vast majority of psychologists and parenting advice if you are parenting a child who has experienced significant trauma. Trauma has a long term - in some cases permanent - effect on brain structure and chemistry, as discussed by experts in the field such as Dan Hughes, Bessel van der Kolk, the Center for the Developing Child and other internationally known psychologists/psychiatrists.

Feel free to signpost to your sources for your claims, but unless they are writing specifically about children who have experienced trauma, and had significant qualifications and experience in the field, their theories are of no use in therapeutic parenting.

@121Sarah121 it is difficult to see, isn't it? I do think she is wonderful, and so do many others and we gradually make progress. I can't 'fix' the past, I can help her heal as far as healing is possible, and help her understand and develop strategies for the permanent problems. And also to recognise the positives that can come out of her experiences, such as a huge amount of compassion for others.

@allington, unless you have spent the time watching and interacting with my boy the books are useless. Nothing but observations of another child. Trauma affects everyone different. Just ask the parents on here to describe their kids and they will all be different. That’s why I was so taken by your description of your daughter earlier. The behaviour are so subtle and on my by watching, really watching do you begin to see the need. I think only by watching are we able to work with the child to help them heal. We can’t change their past but we can give them the skills to deal with t he present and the optimism to build hopes and dreams for the future

Thanks Ladies, you are an inspiration.

@121Sarah121 I agree. The books are useful for understanding the underlying processes, but the way that comes out in individual children vary with each child.

I read somewhere (sorry, had a quick look and can't find it) the functional areas (6? I think) affected by trauma, and certainly DD's functioning in all those areas is poor compared to her peers - although none that would be clinically diagnosed, altogether they do have a significant effect.

But those functional areas are very wide, e.g. language and communication, so each child will have a different collection of areas affected and specific triggers, and so responding to each child is very individual.

It takes a lot of detective work, which is why my blood pressure rises whenever ANY professional is prescriptive about the 'best' way to respond to DD, although the best of them have offered useful suggestions and ideas that have been effective.

Thank you for replying. My son masks so much that even Sw don’t fully believe me! It’s been a hard struggle to get anyone to listen to me (I recently posted a thread called “I’m struggling”). My husband said the other day he had no idea how difficult he can be as he is now at home during lockdown. And believe me when I say he still masks when my husband is about! However, a few minutes later I said I would need to arrange a meeting with his teacher before he starts school in August to discuss his needs. My husband replied “he will be absolutely fine - you don’t give him enough credit!” Argh!!! I know he will be fine because he is amazing and will hide his struggles to everyone but I want the teacher to know about his needs and how to support him because he will find some aspects of school really hard to negotiate. And he will mask and he will lose it at home (or on The way home).

As he gets older, I see more of the challenges he overcomes each day. Academically, he is a bright wee thing. But emotionally he really struggles and uses all these strategies to get through the day. His needs are subtle and only be getting to know him will you see them