Changing first name

[mollymollymoo]

Hi
It's looking really likely that we've been matched with a little girl - very excited! However - her current name is so identifying and ridiculous that even our social worker has said they can work with us to change it.
She'll be nearly 2 when she comes home.

Does anyone have any experience of this, the practicalities etc?

This is our 2nd adoption and we would have been more than happy to keep her name otherwise.. but really it is awful and not fair on her to have to grow up with it!!

Under what circumstance could a judge stop a birth parent changing a name realistically? Of course if a parent wanted to call their child a swear word or something so ludicrous as to make them a laughing stock, the judge may well have an opinion and stop it.

But aside from that what would a judge really have to say about it?

Even if a judge said no, a family can use any name they like at home. How many kids have Nick names? Who has approved those?

To me this all hangs on whether adoptive parents can be trusted to make decisions about the children they parent. And I say all things being equal, they can.

So if a birth or adoptive parent really thinks a name change is in a child's best interest I think it is utterly wrong for the state to interfere.

You are welcome, brightsunshineatlast, to stop discussing this.

And I will agree there have been a wide range of views.

Which I hope have helped the OP.

italian because we are talking about name changes. Whether you like it or not, when you adopt a child, the child already has a name. Our society and culture (the courts, the psychologists, others) has views about changing names.

Just going back to what you said has been said to adopters "A name is the only thing the birth patents give a child" are you saying that a professional has said that it is kept for the benefit of the birth parent? I cannot imagine that as the focus is always on the needs of the child

Why would I not like a child already having a name?

My son had three. We kept all but the surname.

"Our society and culture (the courts, the psychologists, others) has views about changing names" I think these views are not necessarily based on what is best for a child as of they were they would trust adopters more rather than telling them (in our case) what should be done.

Yes a professional said that. And it is a lie but there you go. The professional did not say it was for the benefit of the birth parents, the professional said something like "A name is the only thing some birth parents give their child." Or words to that affect.

I am dubious about the reasons first names are considered so significant.

Despite being dubious we kept our son's name because we decided it was best for him.

Had we honestly felt it would be harmful we would have made our own choice.

I think these views are not necessarily based on what is best for a child as of they were they would trust adopters more rather than telling them (in our case) what should be done I don't see your rationale there, but in relation to whether it is best for a child I understand that you think the courts are wrong, and that the psychologists who have passed comment are wrong. But if you wanted to challenge this, and the status quo, you'd need to become an expert in and challenge the psychology papers/research and the case law on the same level I think!

In relation to what the professional said, they may have meant that the child may want to keep what they got from their birth parent, ie the name, because some adoptees have said that - I quoted an adoptee who runs a support group in an earlier post who said something along those lines.

brightsunshineatlast "I understand that you think the courts are wrong, and that the psychologists who have passed comment are wrong."

No, I did not say that. I am in favuor of keeping a child's first name where it is safe to do so. I do worry about social media and I do worry what will happen when my son goes on social media.

"...you'd need to become an expert in and challenge the psychology papers/research and the case law on the same level I think! " I don't pretend to be an expert nor do I intend to be one, but I am an expert in terms of knowing my children and trying to do what is best for them. That is my only concern here. When an adoptive parent becomes a legal parent to their child they will have known them 6 months or maybe much more. Although that does not sound much you quickly realise that you know them now, as they are, and their experiences of birth and foster care are in the past. You feel a huge weight of responsibility for this child, in my opinion as a birth parent and an adoptive parent the weight of responsibility feels greater for the adopted child. I sincerely hope adoptive parents are not making flippant choices for their children.

Are you a parent by adoption, did you feel hat huge pressure? I certainly did and do.

"In relation to what the professional said, they may have meant that the child may want to keep what they got from their birth parent, ie the name, because some adoptees have said that - I quoted an adoptee who runs a support group in an earlier post who said something along those lines."

Yes, they may have meant that but the statement is still untrue.

Birth parents give their birth child eye and hair and skin colour, blood group, every patch of skin and drop of blood. They also give invitro experiences, and those first ones when a child is born, and for some actual years of care or lack of it, and many other physical things as well like toys and clothes etc.

sorry that not hat, of course!

Last night I watched episode two of this very good documentary.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nec9MYpaGSA

In it a family of four children are desperate to take on the surname of the adoptive parents and after quite a while the adoption order goes through and they are able to do this.

It just shows a different perspective. That for some children a change of name, all be it surname, may be seen as a good thing.

I do very much understand your heart is in the right place, brightsunshineatlast but I just do not agree that keeping a name overrides other concerns. I think we may agree on more than it appears but that's just my feeling.

I think that all things being equal a name should be kept but I do worry about the cases where this is not necessarily in the child's best interests and that those situations may get swept up in the whole 'do not change a name' thing.

No, this does not make me an expert but I am not sure all those experts who have pontificated on the subject have had to deal with issues relating to children being found on social media by birth parents etc. They are looking at one aspect of it, but as adopters we need to think about the whole thing.

So for me, I think I am now on the same page as far as you and so will join you in saying "...other than that, I am not sure there is much left to be said...."

Yes, they may have meant that but the statement is still untrue

But you will have seen that it is what many adult adoptees say. I think that is worth listening to that - even if you think it is technically "untrue".

What adoptees say as little children is very often different from what they say as adults, just the same as non adoptees. Parents therefore do what the child needs, not what they are saying they are desperate to do, which they may be saying for all sorts of reasons.

And another perspective, in relation to being an expert about your own children, one of the things parents are seriously judged about is not listening to professional advice!!

Parents adopted or not, do not have carte blanche in relation to their children. There is not actually very much presumption of trust, which is why parents end up having to go to lengths to get doctors and schools to meet their children's needs at times - and sometimes the lack of trust is misplaced and sometimes it isn't - sometimes parents (all parents including adoptive parents) do not actually know the best thing to do for their children, whether physically or psychologically or otherwise.

I don't mind disagreeing with you and I hope that you feel the same way, and I am also open minded about things I may have got wrong, about things I may realise that I need to re-think. Thanks for a civilised discussion on this very difficult subject.

"I don't mind disagreeing with you and I hope that you feel the same way, and I am also open minded about things I may have got wrong, about things I may realise that I need to re-think. Thanks for a civilised discussion on this very difficult subject."

I 100% agree and say the same of myself. I am always open to the prospect that I may be wrong!

Our DC's came to us aged 5&6. Panel and SW's all advised name change as they were very identifying plus there were/are safety concerns. We found it very difficult, particularly as the SW's didn't want us to address it with children until a few months in. In the end we talked to children about it, and the reasons why, a few weeks into placement. We suggested similar but far less unusual names, same starting syllable for DS and some letters changed but similar sounding for DD. Our DD was fine with it but DS, while seeming happy enough with his own name, will use DDs original name a lot still. I worry about how it is affecting them.

That sounds like a very difficult situation Sotodaymynameis.

I don’t know if it helps, but I know a child placed aged 8 who wanted to change her own first name. She has been badly neglected and abused in her Bf and had clear memories of it all. Like you, there were safely and security issues.

She chose a new first name which was a little like former name Eg it was Margaret- Mary and she changed it to Marie.

She chose her adoptive mothers name as her middle name.

She has no regrets at all and is now an adult. In fact she was very glad that she did, because when she was 16, social workers contacted her AP to say that the Bf wanted contact with her. The girl refused despite SS putting a lot of pressure on her and her AP to agree.

So she is sure that BF would have tracked her down through social media if she had kept Her first name.

SoTodayMyNameIs that sounds tough. Do you know why your son is doing it?

Is he forgetting, or doing it to make a point or to be nasty to her? How is he with his own name change?

I've got two kids, one birth child aged nearly 14 (dd) and an adopted son of 8. They rarely miss a chance to be rude to each other so my guess is your son is doing it to wind her up.

Whatever he feels about the name change it is her new name and so he needs to get on board.

I'd worry about the affect on her and try and get to the bottom of the reasons with him.

I think you have 100% done the right thing in changing their names.

Your name is not who you are. It is how others call you. We rarely call ourselves by our own name except to signal to others, IYSWIM. Whem we think of ourselves we say 'I' or 'me' usually - both out loud and in our heads!

I am me because of the way I look, sometimes how I feel, my life experiences, my position in my family (that's a massive one of course in afoptoom but with time it comes, we are four years in).

For example for me myself-I am me because of how I wear my hair, my look (which is why aging is such a kicker), I am me for my beliefs, I am me for the imprint I made on the world etc. IMHO.

So encourage their sense of identity in all the ways you can.

And good luck because you sound like a fab parent.

I went on a course a few weeks ago and as a group exercise we were all asked to list 10 things that were our identity. There were 20 people and every single person put their name as the first on their list of their identity. Then came Mother, sister, daughter etc.

In my experience issues arise when people are older regarding name change and some people never seem to have an issue with their name being changed, although I have never met one of those ‘in the flesh’ only going off social media.

Someone i know has just changed their first name aged 14. They did it because they want to change gender and they feel their new name reflects their true identity, to them its about being authentic and they want to turn their back on their past.

They have been supported to do this by their social worker and psychiatrist. No one has told them they cant do this because of their identity and that its their only link with their biological family.

It’s odd that this prohibition only applies to adoptees. Other people get to choose and have multi layered identities .

It’s very interesting .

@kr1stina It's not "prohibition" and it's not "odd" - we're talking about children who have been taken from their birth families and put into a new family where everything is different.

Try to imagine what it must be like as a child when everything you've ever known has been taken away from you (regardless of how safe it was) - and how little control you would feel in this instance.

Then add to this by then being told you're no longer called X but are now to be called Y. For an already neglected, traumatized child, this creates even more confusion and shame - because really, what was so wrong with their name (and themselves) that it has to change?

You can't compare changing gender to adoption because adoption is something that happens to children and there is no control there on the part of the child. One would hope that in the majority of gender transformation cases that control IS there.

I'm going through the adoption process and I'd love to be able to name my child. However I understand completely why it's not in the best interests for the child to do this.

angel - Most adopters do not change the names of their children, despite having a distinctive name, I did not change my son's name. But his name is a 'real' name and really rather nice.

However, as you may very well see when you get to the matching process some children waiting for families have the most ridiculous names. I'm not just talking about unusual spellings, or unusual names, but made up names that will only cause a child great difficulty in the future. Its all right for the childen of the rich and famous, who will only mix with other children of the rich and famous, to be saddled with names like Moonbeam or Princess Trixibelle. Do you really think its in the interests of children to carry a name like that with them ? And for some children unfortunately, the need for security will take precedence.

@ted27 of course I don't think that's in the best interests ... I'm not sure how you made such a big leap from what I wrote to that?

I was pointing out to a different poster the difference between gender transformation and adoption and why it's advised not to change adopted children's names ... I was trying to suggest - in quite basic terms - why it's more complicated than that.

I completely understand why some adopted children, however, do need their names to be changed (for security, because the names are identifying, because the names are utterly ludicrous).

I do, however, think stating a name is 'real' or not is an interesting line of conversation. Many people would think my first name isn't 'real' as it's not a standard, English name. However I can assure you that it's very real to me. :)

angelolsen if you are going through the process at the moment I wonder if you yet know your child and their story? If you do not know them yet I would reserve judgment on what will be best for them.

If a child has a very identifying name and a potentially dangerous birth parent ( not the norm but a possibility) I hope you will take the responsibility of keeping them safe very seriously and not take to heart every thing the social workers tell you.

Also kr1stina is a very experienced adopter well aware of what children might lose and gain through this process.

Keeping or changing a name is very much a decision an adoptive parent should take with as many relevant facts before them. We kept our son's 2 names and added a family name and surname based on what we felt was evidence of what would be right for him.

angelolsen, cross posted there. You've answered some of what I responded to.

Your first post suggested to me you thought one should always keep a name but your later post suggests you don't think that.

@italiangreyhound - good advice, you're quite right. It's not a good idea to generalise and changing names / not changing names is, of course, something to consider with every child and their history / circumstances.

I do think it's ill-advised for others to compare gender transformation with adoption with regards to changing names ... but I think we're all agreed that anyone involved in adoption wants what's best for the child.

sotodaymynameis I would probably talk to them both about their feelings again, let them know that you know that it is a serious thing, even though you think it is for the best, and let them know that you are worried about how they feel about it, so that it helps them to open up to you hopefully. I would also get some objective advice from a psychologist with suitable qualifications and experience, explaining the exact circumstances and the advice you have already received from panel/sw. And also maybe chat to the sw again. If at the end of the day the advice is to keep with the changed names, the important thing is to help the dc come to terms with it, and you may need to talk to the dc about it, about their feelings,and to explain why, again and as regularly as needed, right up to adulthood.

@angelolsen I'm not sure and could be wrong but I think kr1stina was partly saying that people (in general) might change their name for many reasons.

People joining their families by adoption also have these multi layers and might also have complex reasons for name changing. I know of one adopted teen who changed her name on adoption, a few trans people who have changed their names and loads of women who changed their name on marriage.

Plus one guy who changed his name just because he felt his old name was not 'him'.

What's simpler about all these situations is the person decides for themselves.

What's so bloody hard about parenting is you don't get the luxury of saying 'you decide' to a baby or small child. The parent decides.

Professionals are great but they can only go on what they know and advice/best practice changes.

So it is tough and most of us now do agonize over our parenting decisions.

I'd say especially for adopted children.

We do generally know there is a lot at stake. Our kids have been 'failed' once, maybe multiple times; so we know there is a lot at stake.

@SoTodayMyNameIs it's just a thought and I could be totally wrong but have you read up on 'trauma bonds'?

If your daughter has adjusted better to adoption or to her new name than your son it might indicate that he is having trouble progressing moving on/ out of difficulties. Maybe her ability to do that is hard for him and he doesn't want her to move on without him?

If he just has an issue with his name it would be easier to understand.

When I said I wondered if he was doing it to wind her up it was partly based on my own kids who seem to delight in upsetting each other. But I know that not all kids are like that.

I could have used the word 'proper' and it would have had the same effect. I'm well aware that the English do not have a monoply on 'proper' or 'real'' names. My son is of African descent and has an African name. Its a 'real' name in his ethnic group but unusual to the English ear. A lot of people who don't know us think he is a girl and are surprised to find he is a stapping 14 year old young man, others struggle with the pronounciation , though to me its blindingly obvious.
If someone choses to call their child Princess Trixibelle its a 'real' name to them, but I think you know what I'm getting at.

I think there is an issue about names which might suggest a different meaning or connotation to the predominant culture of the country you are in. My son was in a class a few years ago with a number of Asian chidren. I forget the spelling now but one of the boys names was pronounced Wackass. I think you would agree that in the UK this is a little unfortunate. This boy had quite severe disabilties and was in a special school but I hate to think what his experience would have been in your average mainstream secondary school. I'm sure there are English names which would have a similar effect in other cultures.

We changed our daughters name a bit. It was spelt in a rather unique way, think Raychal instead of Rachel (it's not that). We changed it to the more conventional spelling and gave her a middle name. She knows we changed it and when the SW suggested that her BM could write to her with the original spelling she felt very strongly that that wasn't who she was and said it needed to be spelt the way she spells it now

I saw this thead and thought of you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3392523-To-change-my-babys-name-feeling-guilt-and-sadness

Mum wants to change baby’s name. NOT ONE SINGLE person has suggested that she can’t do so because the name is the child’s identity and the child will be deeply traumatised by it.

And it’s againts the rules and she must have Very Serious Reasons for it which must be approved my someone Very Important who is An Expert on her child.

I wonder why ?