Nightmare with daughter at school

[HammerToFall]

I'm having a nightmare with dd 8 at school in year fourSo as not to drip feed she is adopted, was placed with us at 12 months and went straight into foster care from birth. She also is working at a year 2 level, there is a strong history of learning difficulties in the birth family background.

Dd has always been a well liked happy child at school but since she went back in September things have got pretty bad.

Her behaviour at school is unacceptable. She refuses to even look at her work, she is disruptive and rude. She starts fights with other children in the class and does things like lie on the floor in the middle of the classroom and refuse to move or engage with any member of staff. She did a runner of the school bus on a swimming trip a couple of weeks ago and they couldn't find her for fifteen minutes.

School are now threatening inclusive exclusion and then if that doesn't work straight forward exclusion. I'm so worried about her future and where this is going to go.

We have tried talking to her obviously and all we get is there's no problem and she doesn't know why she does it. School have tried and she just refuses to even look at the teacher never mind speak.

How can we get to the bottom of this if she won't open up?

How would she be refusing to co-operate with the school by seeking advice from her GP? Schools have to ensure they have reintegration meetings after exclusions. She's not refusing to co-operate by seeking medical advice before she goes. The school will need support with her, because this is very extreme.

Is it worth speaking to the inclusion officer at LA?

It really is new behaviour. There was none of this I. The last school year. In fact her old teacher often used to come and tell me at pick up time how lovely and helpful she had been that day.

My fear about her going back on Monday is that nothing is resolved so I imagine she will just do it again as she now knows if she does she gets sent home.

School have told me they will only allow 3 temporary exclusions before they look to permanently exclude. I have an older son at the same school in year 6 who is doing very well there and I couldn't want to move him and just the logistics of getting them to two different schools would be a nightmare although obviously if this is going to be better for dd I would do that.

I also don't want to to just take her out as I'm not convinced it's the school per se that's the problem and this could well occur in another school.

"How would she be refusing to co-operate with the school by seeking advice from her GP? "

I think, fairly obviously, seeing a GP is fine; though I doubt it would help much. The GP bit wasn't the issue. Refusing to attend a meeting with the school and then keeping her daughter off unlawfully is a bad plan. If that isn't what you were suggesting then I have misunderstood, but that's good because it means the OP won't.

"The school will need support with her, because this is very extreme."

A GP can't access or provide that. The school can. I think the support you are envisaging assumes significant mental health team intervention. That might be needed, but has other consequences and I wouldn't ask for it lightly.

If it turns out there are serious mental health issues going on then the GP will need to be involved, but children behave in extreme ways for lots of reasons. There are more immediate steps, which involve the school/other education support first.

Based purely on your last description of the behaviour, could it be that your DD has found highly effective methods to get herself out of the classroom (where she doesn't feel safe?) and into the smaller, softer welfare room (where she does feel safe?) I would be asking the school what they can do to enable your DD to access a safe, quiet space when she feels overloaded, without her having to resort to panic strategies. Some children have a card in their pocket they can show the teacher allowing them a five min break, some have a teacher or TA tuned in enough to spot early signs and suggest it, etc etc.

I agree you need to keep communication open with the school and attend the meeting to discuss the right timing of re-joining school - which should be when you're confident they have the right support in place. I disagree that this is unlikely to be adoption-related - early trauma experiences pre and post natally are known to affect LAC and adopted children's ability to cope at school, and can manifest in all sorts of ways. That doesn't mean their might not be other issues, but if it were me I'd certainly begin with looking at common triggers for adopted children (sensory needs, shame, hyper-vigilance, difficulty with relationships and rejection...) and see where that leads.

@OP. Go to the meeting. Do everything the school asks and say all the right stuff. If you feel they aren't putting the steps in place to manage this properly then there are things you can do to push them. You can PM me if you think thats needed.

Don't worry about the exclusion stuff for now, the main thing is to help address your daughter's behaviour.

In my area, access to clinical psychologists is a lot quicker via the GP than the school.

She is not being kept off school "unlawfully" if she is not well enough to attend. I made no suggestion that the OP should refuse to attend any meeting (and I don't believe she did either) but it's as well to have plenty of advice and a plan before going, in my opinion. I'm sure the OP will consider all the options in any case.

Cross-posted with your update - if there was such a close bond with last year's teacher, could that be triggering rejection/abandonment fears do you think? Could your DD go and "help" her old teacher with something once a week, so she knows the relationship is not gone? Please ignore if this doesn't fit!

@ Rather. Your first point is almost certainly true- it's the why of it that's the going to be difficult to get at.

Your second point might be true but jumping to the wrong conclusion can be damaging. There is no evidence of childhood trauma or attachment issues, from the OPs first post they seem unlikely.

A poor in-utero environment might have inhibited her daughters development, but there is no fix for that.

Many, many children behave this way, for lots of reasons. It will take time and people actually seeing/speaking to the child to unpick this.

My fear about her going back on Monday is that nothing is resolved so I imagine she will just do it again as she now knows if she does she gets sent home.

I think your fear is justified.

When I have led reintegration meetings, I've always been acutely aware of that. I think, given her age and the extremity of the situation and also her background, that it would be wise to seek professional medical advice first and consider asking the LAC team (isn't it now called CLA?) to assist you in incorporating a PEP alongside it.

Schools can offer temporary reduced timetables, and although I'm at secondary, we would start with just an hour a day in extreme situations. She's not coping for whatever reason and this needs a proper look at and a proper plan.

I like Rather's suggestion of maintaining that relationship. We ask students in difficulty if there is a member of staff they would like to have as a mentor and it can make all the difference.

Unfortunately last years teacher has left the school.

I'm not sure what this meeting is going to be like so I will attend with an open mind, however my feeling at the moment is that she won't be rejoining until there is an effective plan out into place to deal with this.

I am so sorry you and your dd are going through this.

Agree with cauliflower big time.

Also good advice from matimeo and PoppySteller and all the others giving excellent advice. Support school where you can but when what they want to do is counter productive, Eg reintegration when nothing has been resolved, then say what you feel and get support from Gp and post adoption support to exploan why this is not in her best interests. It must be very hard for teacher and rest of class too.

It almost sounds Iike she is trying to burn her bridges, alienate herself from rest of class.

Does she have friends? Have you met them with her or spoken to the mums/dad (primary carers) to find out if anything has happened.

It is a bit confusing whether this behaviour is totally out of the blue because your recent update said she hates school and I wonder if this has been simmering below the surface for ages?

If genuinely out of blue I would be thinking bullying, (sorry) some sort of physical or even sexual assault that has happened and made her not want to leave your side, out of the blue anxiety attack which has made her feel school is not a safe place and she must escape at all costs, etc.

I developed anxiety in my early thirties. I had cognitive behavioural therapy for it(on the NHS) and am totally fine now. It did not make me behave like your dd, but then I was an adult. (What I am saying about me is true but as far as your dd is concerned this is total guess work, so do feel free to ignore me.)

If this has been simmering a while I might think mental health issues (do birth parents have them?)

Could this be as yet unrecognized or undiagnosed Attention Deficit, ADHD (more common in boys but possible in girls I believe),.ASD, PDA, ODD. Our birth dd had none of these extreme behaviours but some others at home and we considered all these different conditions for her with CAMHS.

Just so you know, I'm mum to a boy of 6 who was adopted at 3 and 3/4 and is in year 2 working at year 2 level, and having Theraplay for his emotions.

As I say, I am also mum to a birth dd with autistic tendencies at high school working several years below her age.

I think that you need specialist therapitoc advice, I wonder if therapy or something called theraplay could help? This could be paid for by school using PP money if they agree, by post adoption support (even if they have no one to provide it, if they have a fund to fund it you MIGHT be able to access that). You can pay yourself, if you can afford it. If you do, save all receipts, unlikely you will be able to claim back but who knows. Also, if you have any kind of private family health cover then you may be able to use that.

Lastly, and I am sure you know this, ctovitoes side by side, play dough; craft; baking;.decorating cakes; gardening etc will give good chances for her to open up. She says she does not know why she is doing it but she may be able to leak out clues as to what is going on internally.

Please IGNORE anything I have said that is unhelpful.

Sorry I had not read page three.

If this behaviour is utterly new then I would be trying to identify the trigger. Could you talk in a non-threatening way about the old teacher and see how she reacts? Leave lots of pauses for her to speak (I am very verbose and need to be reminded to do this!). Ask your dd what would help her.

You may not be able to supply it (esspecially if it involves 'going back in time to when I was happy') but you may gain insight. I am not experienced in all this, I am a normal mum, not involved in education, but I have done many parenting class (about 10) and had a lot of attachment and post adoption support.

I totally agree with you hammer, you must cooperate with school in attending meeting but I would far rather meeting happened before she was reintegrated. And I also think your concerns 're integration are spot on.

I also think a good GO could help. Mental health issues affect something like one on three people. It may be they manifest late or early, I had OCD in my teens, no one knew (30 years ago) what it was all about. at least in my family, so it was ignored. Exploring mental health issues does not necessarily 'label' a child. My dd gas dyslexia and because of not wanto g 'to label her'. her school took yratsbyo recognise it and never fully cooperated with the professional help that I had accessed. She is now at high school, her need at being better met and she happier, more interested in school, it I'd do different. Not sure if I am making sense but I guess I mean facing potential issues is, I think, so.much better than shying away. CAMS investigated my dd's potential ASD and came up with autistic tendencies. I thin mental health like ASD can be scary to consider (no offense) but getting to the bottom of things is priceless.

Also the voice I do not hear here is you dd. How does she feel, what does she say. I do 't mean you should tell us but is she communicating with you and are you recording what she says hammer?

matimeo how do you know this is pay likely not adoption related? Even children adopted as babies can have issues related to this. Our adopted son has all kinds of potential related issues. Many children who come through social services can have mental health issues. Learning difficulties, drug or alcohol abuse on their family make up, it does not mean they will be affected by it, but it certainty means they could be. So totally agree with Ratherbeindoors.

Oopse pm phone, lots of typos. Hope you get gist, it was not allowing me to check a d change!

As the old teacher has left, is the old TA still around? Could he/she offer any insight?

Have you tried the 'wondering' technique to try to unpick the cause?
e.g. 'I wonder if maybe new teacher shouts'
'I wonder if the work is too hard'
that kind of thing?

"matimeo how do you know this is pay likely not adoption related?"

Quite right, I don't know anything, and figuring out what's going on before acting too precipitously is important for the OP. Hence my use of qualified 'may' 'probably' etc.

I think I'm using a narrower version of 'adoption related' than you. Ratherbeindoors referred to attachment issues which would obviously would be directly related to the circumstances of adoption. However OP states that her daughter was fostered from birth, then adopted at 12 months old and has had no prior behaviour of this nature; making attachment seem a very unlikely cause to me. The LA advised life story work (!) and if adoption worries aren't the issue I wouldn't want to be giving the poor kid more stuff to worry about.

I agree OP should definitely be thinking about the other potential causes you raised, and many may relate to why her daughter was adopted; but the support needed is the same whether a child is adopted or not.

If one were hearing about any adopted child with this behaviour then developmental issues related to poor in utero environment (e.g. drugs, alcohol) are extremely likely. Unfortunately such stuff is incredibly hard to diagnose specifically and even if proved there is nothing useful to be done. All any of us with these children can do is try to help them develop as well as possible.

"Also the voice I do not hear here is you dd. How does she feel, what does she say. I do 't mean you should tell us but is she communicating with you and are you recording what she says hammer?"

I think this point you made is the most important, and until she knows more I would still be trying to deal with the behaviour itself and slowly find out what's going on. If I were the OP, all this speculation would make me very worried. It could easily be: kid doesn't like new teacher, classwork is inappropriate, teacher handles conflict poorly, kid works out that paddy throwing gets her out of class, rinse and repeat until situation is a mess. It could also be a normal kid being horribly bullied and venting in the wrong way.

TL;DR: I agree there is caused to be very concerned but there is a big difference between educational counselling/behaviour intervention and an NHS psych consult. I'd try one before the other.

matimeo, Re "I agree OP should definitely be thinking about the other potential causes you raised, and many may relate to why her daughter was adopted; but the support needed is the same whether a child is adopted or not."

Yes, I agree, I guess when I say adoption related I do not just mean that the person caring for the child is not the person who gave birth to the child, but the whole aspects that go with it. Like not really knowing what has happened to our children invitro, or in their early days or at any time before they came to us. And foster care is not always good care, although my son had an amazing foster carer, who I am eternally grateful to.

Re "All any of us with these children can do is try to help them develop as well as possible." Yes, of course.

My dd put a lot of effort into coping at school, but erupted at home. She is not adopted but many things I read about adopted children fit her!

Re "I think this point you made is the most important" ... (voice of child)...
I agree, do think hearing from the children is so key.

I read an excellent book called How to talk so children listen and listen so children talk

This book gives some excellent advice on getting children to talk, as well as listen. I do feel as parents we do a lot (I DO) of talking to kids and sometimes we could do much more listening to them. As I said before I am very verbose, and need to remind myself to really listen.

HammerToFall whatever happens I really hope you will get the support you need, from all quarters, and that your dd will find her way through this. We may not all agree on what is best (here) but I do hope that our various comments will be useful to you in some way.

We had this when our son transferred from nursery to reception. It was like a transformation. We have tried all sorts to deal with it and this is ongoing but top tips so far:

• don't ask why, she won't know. It could be as subtle as this new teacher's smell brings back an unconscious memory.
• no further consequences at home (though this is hard)
• do talk to her but let her know you are on her side
• close contact with school re strategies
• you can wonder 'I wonder if you were worried about' or if there is something relevant in her life story that might be relevant.
• try books such as 'William wobbly and the very bad day'
• try getting school on board with attachment. Adoptionuk.org has some good paperwork for schools. Or you could give them a copy of therapeutic parenting in a nutshell.
• let dd know you are not ok with her behaviour, suggest alternative behaviours for those feelings. We say 'we must try not to let our big feelings hurt other people'.
• transition objects - ds has a build a bear with my voice in it at school.

Good luck. If you have post adoption support then you are already better off than us and getting them to come with you to school could be great.

matimeo - our DD was fostered from birth and placed with us soon after 12 months, but she very much has attachment issues

In fact, DD has started playing up in school very recently - not to the extend of the OP's DD, but I could see her behaviour heading in that direction if left unchecked. Fortunately we have been able to get to the root of it very quickly: it turns out that there have been lots of different teachers and TAs coming into the classroom to support her teacher (brand new first ever teaching job), which has completely thrown her. What we do to address it is another issue altogether...

"matimeo - our DD was fostered from birth and placed with us soon after 12 months, but she very much has attachment issues"

I'm sure you know more about attachment disorder than me. I didn't for a moment suggest that was never an issue in these situations- as someone said above, not all foster care is good enough.

That said her daughter is 8, and none of the information given suggests neglect as a baby or the kind of difficulty forming relationships or inappropriate behaviour with strangers that would shout attachment issues. The behaviours such as not making eye contact with the teacher sound new and situational. I think it's reasonable to describe it as a less likely cause; what do you think?

Still it does no harm to be aware of these potential causes, as long as the OP doesn't stress herself out worrying about them all.

she just repeatedly tells me she doesn't know why she is doing it.

She doesn't have to know. But she can probably tell you what events she remembers happening, in the minutes before she blew her stack, and how she felt about each one.

RE the hypothetical likelihood of attachment needs, from the OP I read it as at such significant risk pre-natally that was removed at birth; experienced at least 2 significant traumatic losses prior to the age of 12 months (the move to foster care, and the move to adopters). In my interpretation of the info, the red flags for avoidant attachment behaviours may not have been described, but there is appear to be indicators that neurological patterns connected to ambivalent and disordered attachment could be there. Just some of these could be: inability to regulate emotions, difficulty processing cortisol, very high everyday anxiety that takes only a "small" additional trigger to result in extreme reactions, hyper-vigilance, fight/flight response triggered when experiencing shame, sensory sensitivity, subconscious sensory triggers as in PPs post about scents or sounds, etc etc. Some of the descriptions given by the OP could really have been lifted straight out of Louise Bomber's brilliant "Inside I'm hurting" resource book about adopted and looked after children in education. Of course, no-one is suggesting this is the whole answer, and it's important to be mindful that neither the early years experiences, or the family medical history, end up over-shadowing each other and limiting the right responses.

@RatherBeIndoors

I am not a clinical psychologist, so I'm hesitant to enter into an argument but I think you are misrepresenting attachment disorder. It can't be caused just by transferring carer at a young age or everyone who is adopted would suffer. It's usual causes are neglect and/or long term inconsistency of primary carer.

I'm open to being proved wrong on this but I think it would need quite strong citations.

Many, perhaps most, children experience a number of the issues you describe; but attachment disorder is a specific, recognised condition. In some ways it's easier to diagnose than FAS or ASD.

The OP's daughter has big problems at the mo, and they may well be signs of something very serious; but her descriptions could have been pulled directly from any book on troubled children, or my own direct experience with lots of non-adopted kids.

I am not suggesting avoidant, ambivalent or other attachment disorders can be caused solely by fragmented and neglectful and traumatic early experiences - I am strongly suggesting that an individual's attachment style can be affected, and that consideration should be made accordingly. Would a clinical psychologist declare that every adopted child had severe clinical attachment disorder? No. Would they be able to identify additional attachment needs in many more of them, that require therapeutic parenting and intervention to mitigate? Yes. I am happy to concur with Margot Sunderland, Bruce Perry, Dan Hughes, Louise Bomber, Kate Cairns, Kim Golding, Amber Elliot and many more published psychologists on this.

If I inferred the OP's child had clinical attachment disorder, that was unintended. My intention was to flag the additional attachment needs that really should be considered for every LAC and adopted child.