Nightmare with daughter at school

[HammerToFall]

I'm having a nightmare with dd 8 at school in year fourSo as not to drip feed she is adopted, was placed with us at 12 months and went straight into foster care from birth. She also is working at a year 2 level, there is a strong history of learning difficulties in the birth family background.

Dd has always been a well liked happy child at school but since she went back in September things have got pretty bad.

Her behaviour at school is unacceptable. She refuses to even look at her work, she is disruptive and rude. She starts fights with other children in the class and does things like lie on the floor in the middle of the classroom and refuse to move or engage with any member of staff. She did a runner of the school bus on a swimming trip a couple of weeks ago and they couldn't find her for fifteen minutes.

School are now threatening inclusive exclusion and then if that doesn't work straight forward exclusion. I'm so worried about her future and where this is going to go.

We have tried talking to her obviously and all we get is there's no problem and she doesn't know why she does it. School have tried and she just refuses to even look at the teacher never mind speak.

How can we get to the bottom of this if she won't open up?

Pupil Premium money for Looked After Children is different to that of disadvantaged children.

A basic amount comes into school automatically but the rest (a larger amount than for the usual pupil premium) must be claimed for. School has to write a detailed PEP (personal education plan) with clear outcomes in order to receive it and (unlike the usual pupil premium) it must be spent on the LAC.

Today dd was excluded for three days. Aggressive behaviour in the classroom. Not much to say really as in shell shocked just updating the thread.

Did they five you an exclusion letter?

What is her reaction?

"doesn't know why she does it": I would still try talking to her. Your own mini CBT. Get her to talk thru what happened & how she felt about each thing she can remember happening. In bit & piece. Focus on the feelings at first, not the decisions or actions. Kids don't act out 4 no reason.

if it's very upsetting, she won't be able to talk thru very much... at first. But after a while she might be able to, nibble around the edges of what's happened, give you a picture.

She needs to be assessed properly! Poor DD and poor you :( They're not looking after her at all! I think you should post this in Special Needs OP they will know very well how to approach this.

Hammer - first of all, suggest you get this moved to the Adoption Board

Second, yes, Pupil Premium Plus is to be spent on the specific child, not for general support of children who are eligible for Pupil Premium.

Third, the funding and the treatment of your DD makes me think that the school has very limited experience of adoption and the issues it can raise. Is there another school that could be possible to move to?

Fourth to you and your DD. She sounds terrified, and everything the school have done discipline wise have exacerbated this

My DD's are adopted.

Something has gone badly wrong this year.

New teacher, new behaviour expectations, new academic expectations, it's all got too much?? Poor behaviour is an effective way to get out of doing something you can't actually do.

It took DD2 until y4 to realise she was struggling compared to most of the others, her self esteem dropped and needed a lot of work to build up.

Can't believe they haven't been claiming PP

What does the current class teacher have to say?
What does last years class teacher have to say?

To be honest at this point I would be looking at moving schools if at all possible to one which is more on the ball, more nurturing, more flexible. Take her out of school until half term, and fresh start from then?

Thanks everyone for the support. I have asked for this to be moved to the adoption Board. We did receive an exclusion letter, it was very scathing!! Dd truly isn't bothered, she has got what she wants which is to stay at home.

Last years teacher has left unfortunately. The new teacher is just that a brand new teacher, I haven't met with the head as yet as she is too busy!!

We have a reintegration meeting which someone from the after adoption support team is going to attend with me.

What a lot to go through! The school is utterly failing to recognise your daughter's needs, and as PP said, appear to have little or no knowledge about the needs of LAC and adopted children. Yes, the PPremium should be spent on her, in whatever way will help her best (and that may well be ways to help her feel safe at school, therapeutic help, a 1:1, a nurture group, etc). I would also ask your LA to come and assess for an application to the National Adoption Support Fund, to look at wider support your DD might need. They have to assess if you ask, and the funding is national.

The isolating is a truly terrible idea - will trigger shame, abandonment and all kinds of attachment/trauma fears, so has an excellent chance of escalating any behaviour. There are a couple of other recent threads on here about 6 year olds at school, which include brilliant links to materials for schools working with adopted children. Send them to your SENCO and class teacher, the info is really good

And what was your reaction to it with her?

I work in education. Very difficult to give useful advice, without knowing what's going on, but I'll give some random opinions anyway:

1. Not claiming PP is ridiculous. It could just be poor admin, but it suggests the possibility that the school are idiots. I don't say that lightly about colleagues. Your daughter is entitled to that funding, it's the schools tough luck if they didn't claim it.

1. Kids don't get excluded from schools for 4 weeks of non-compliance. Don't overreact. Many kids hate change. It probably has multiple causes, and may take a lot of time and effort to improve.

1. Short term- Nail down exactly how the school will sanction the behaviour problems. Clear structure does work to change behaviour if done properly, that means: immediate consequences, tied to the behaviour, not blaming the child, over with quickly. Does work without praise. Nail down how they will reward good behaviour; at this point, chuck praise and reward at her if she's good. Getting over negative emotions is very hard at 8 and she should be recognised for it.

1. Medium term- Figure out underlying causes. The suggestions of struggling with work and weak teaching are possibilities (near certainty of teacher is brand new). Could also be bullying. Could be something else unrelated to school. Take your time in teaching her how to express negative emotions. Start with other topics and circle back to school. Speak to teachers who know her. Ask her friends. Ideally get an experienced teacher to observe the class for an hour or so.

1. Long term- It will probably take a while to organise proper SEN support. Can't do anything without knowing the problem(s). That means a number of sessions with ed-psych. Once you have a clear plan, push for it to be implemented.

1. Support the school to the hilt. Yes, even if you think they are making mistakes. Teachers are entitled to be inexperienced and nothing in education approaches perfect. You have to (politely) push for the best for your kid in a very challenged system. Don't blame the teacher- ask about the strategies they are using and how you can help.

Good luck.

What a horrible time for you and your DD. I echo what everyone else has said re PP and what the school have been failing to provide in terms of support.

I just wanted to offer some support and practical advice in terms of exclusions as this is an area in which I have experience.

Firstly as PPs have said exclusion is a terrible idea for LAC pupils. Your school should know this, it sounds like they don't so please don't be afraid to tell them why it is such a bad idea at the reintegration meeting. They should also not be issuing fixed term exclusions (FTEs) as a means of building an evidence base of your DDs 'misbehaviour' so that they can then permanently exclude - PEX - her. (If you suggest this is what you think they are doing they will likely say no it isn't, but in reality this is often what schools do)

Secondly, when it comes to permanent exclusions at least (and I think the same principle applies to FTEs) all the guidance from the DfE states that exclusion should be a very last resort in the case of vulnerable pupils such as those who are LAC. Therefore it is expected that schools do absolutely everything they can to avoid exclusions for these very vulnerable pupils. Your school hasn't. Not by a long shot. If they did try to move to PEX your DD the governors would (or at least should) overturn the decision easily for this reason alone.

Basically what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to metaphorically kick their ass over the appalling way they have not supported your DD and don't be too concerned or anxious over the exclusions letter. There is certain statutory info that has to go in the letter that is deliberately worded to sound tough and frightening to try and impress on parents the seriousness of the issue. In your case I would say the exclusion letter is wholly irrelevant because the bigger issue is the fact they haven't supported your DD and they need to. They have a duty to support the additional needs of your DD at school regardless of whether they've claimed PP or not.

X post with matimeo who gives excellent advice

"Thanks everyone for the support. I have asked for this to be moved to the adoption Board. We did receive an exclusion letter, it was very scathing!! Dd truly isn't bothered, she has got what she wants which is to stay at home."

Sorry for not noticing this before posting. I think moving to this stage so quickly is unusual and you might need to dig heels in more than I suggested above (try to keep it as constructive as poss).

Feel free to PM me if you want some more specific suggestions.

Thankyou poppy. You description of what should happen before exclusion is spot on.

Again I would stress that you need to smile and use constructive language while kicking their arse (yes arse, we aren't yanks :-)

Yep definitely smile and nod politely whilst metaphorically kicking their arse. And I agree it's definitely 'arse' not 'ass'

But Poppy we don't know the details of the aggression to be able to judge like that.

I can't offer much sensible advice for you directly as far wiser posters than me are able to do this. However, as a governor I would suggest you check out any information on your school website you can find about the responsibilities for your school governors. We have governors with responsibility for monitoring PP spending and effectiveness, and another who overlooks SEN provision. If your school fails to support your daughter then I would strongly suggest contacting the governors as they should be concerned by what is happening.....

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll try and explain what's been happening.

It started off quite low level, dd would refuse to do her work, wouldn't speak to the teacher and just look away. This ended up I. Her being sent out of the classroom and usually into the welfare teachers room sitting in bean bags and calming down.

The behaviour then escalated to her starting fights with other children, again she would be removed from the classroom.

The day she was excluded she had started a fight and wouldn't stop hitting the other children. She really lost her temper and then started throwing chairs around the classroom. The teacher tried to stop her and she threatened to bite the teacher. It took them a good half an hour to calm down the situation. This ended up in her being excluded for three days.

The teachers have tried to talk to her but she point blank refuses to speak about it. I have talked to her but she just repeatedly tells me she doesn't know why she is doing it.

I have explained to her that her behaviour is unacceptable and she can't carry on doing it. I genuinely think she is glad she has been excluded. She hates school and now she has had three days at home. She has done all her work with me and seems far happier.

The adoption support worker is coming to see us next week to discuss arranging some therapy and she is waiting for Sen assessment at school.

My fear is that she will go back on Monday and just do it all again, because to her the end justifies the means. If she does it she gets to come home.

Honestly I don't think it's a good idea for her to return at the moment.

If, as you say, there have been zero issues until this year and then suddenly she is refusing to respond to her teacher and now is throwing around chairs, hitting children and threatening to bite the teacher, it's not safe for anyone.

You said she didn't seem to mind at all and was quite pleased to be going home. If this is her mindset that she is unable to recognise the socially accepted rules that in school you have to do as you're asked and is unable to recognise that throwing chairs could severely injure (or kill possibly) another child, because her focus is on returning home to you, then realistically how can anyone expect the reintegration to be successful. If she is refusing to talk to teachers then it's really hard for them to help, and it would seem to me that this level of behaviour will be beyond their training. It would seem to me that she needs some quite intensive therapy and help, and a very slow and carefully managed build up back into school.

Long term, as a LAC child, you get priority in any school. Could there be another one which might work better?

Much as I believe that schools should have an on-site nurse and psychologist to assist at all times, budgets are incredibly tight and schools simply don't have the money for this. While it's reassuring that they have a bean bag area she can go to to calm down, it's not exactly getting to the root of the issue, it's a little sticking plaster.

I really hope you can access the help she needs.

From an authorisation point of view (I'm not sure if you would be worried about that or not) I would suggest going to your GP and explaining the situation and asking for his/her support. She is not well.

Cauliflower. I agree with you I don't think it's a good idea for her to return at the moment. However it states in the exclusion letter that if I don't attend the reintegration meeting and she doesn't return to school on Monday that I can face a magistrate who may issue a parenting order!

That's a load of crap. What they mean by that is some parent refuse to attend reintegration meetings and just drop their child off at school and leave.

Please don't be frightened by that. Phone on Monday and say she's not well today but that you will phone regarding the reintegration meeting when she's better.

Get an appointment with the GP and take it from there. I think that is the most responsible thing you can do. You know in your heart that putting her back in that situation is unlikely to make for success. I can't imagine any doctor saying things are fine, the reintegration will be a success and the school can manage. The exclusion could in fact work in your favour because it will unlock quite a lot of support.

@ OP. I would strongly advise that you don't start refusing to co-operate with the school based on random advice on the internet.

No-one on here knows enough to give a useful conclusion. All we can suggest it to try to get professional support, both in your dealings with the school and for your daughter. This probably isn't linked to adoption, but ideally you want your agency's education adviser with you in these meetings because they will have experience in these situations. Your daughter needs to be seeing a qualified children's counselor and an ed-psych asap.

Obviously given the circumstances the school had little choice but to remove her for the time being.

When you you attend the reintegration meeting it's important that you try to nail down how she will be reintegrated and what support will be put in place.

Is this really completely new behaviour? If it is why does the school think it's occurring? Your daughter may well have some serious issues going on but it can simply be the build up of relatively minor triggers- kids don't process negative feelings as well as (most) adults. Trying to identify the immediate cause, even if it isn't the whole problem, is the first priority.