Advise please

[Catvsworld]

Hi We are with a agncey

We would like to change our child's name less than 100 children have been born in the U.K. With the name

Also sw admitted that BM had been Facebook stalking siblings

Our sw has told us that though the LA may kick up a stink they can't actually stop us putting the new name on the AO

Is this correct we want to put the old name as the middle name and the new name first

Amen another reason why it is difficult to be direct with an la because they have very long memories and if you need support at a later date they don't forget you went against there wishes also if your wanting to adopt a sibling or get first refusel and you went against them forget it

Kr1stina, I avoided the "winning" comment as I couldn't articulate my feeling about that without crossing the line into saying something that would probably be deleted. Thank you for articulating your response to that comment so clearly.

Great post, Kr1stina, I completely agree that adoption is about loss and grief for all involved. Of course, I get the huge benefit and joy of my dd2, but I also get to share her sadness day in day out. She writes letters to her birth mother (that can never be sent), asking where she is and why won't she write back. She tells strangers on the bus about her mummy she can't live with. She begs me to help her find her mum, as soon as she hits 18. It is absolutely heartbreaking to deal with, and part of my job as her mum. I would have to be an idiot to view adoption as a happy fix to a temporary problem.

amazing ideas

Thank you Kr1stina - you are so clear about all the desperately sad loss that comes with adoption. I haven't lived the particular kinds experienced by birth families or older adoptees, but every day my child is affected by their early life, physically and mentally, and the pain there is immeasurable. I can give everything I've got, get them access to every kind of support, and it might not be enough to heal their hurts. "Winning" is incredibly insulting. Plus there's the thing where no child, regardless of their situation, is a prize to be awarded.

We're just waiting to see if my daughter has FAS all the while hoping the. La will not fight name change don't feel like I am winning

None of my post was intended to offend anyone, and I genuinely apologise to anyone who has been hurt by it.
Adopting is the winning position because you wanted a child and you got one. Few mothers and children who are separated have any choice in the matter. I made no comment on the ethics of adoption, nor did I imply that I thought that it was easy.
However, IMHO this would be a more helpful forum if we could show more respect and empathy to all of those who have lost in adoption including adoptive parents. All of us have unique experiences and none of us are experts in every aspect of adoption, no matter how many decades we have been dealing with it.
We all get angry and triggered by ideas that we encounter here, but no one is helped by sarcastic riposte's and put downs, least of all the children who are currently being raised.

Adopting is the winning position because you wanted a child and you got one. Few mothers and children who are separated have any choice in the matter

I'm sorry, but this grossly oversimplifies the issues in adoption .

Children are not objects - " you wanted one and you got one". Would you say this to someone who gave birth to a child with special needs ? You don't think that's a rather callous statement ?

And birth parenst have many choices before their children leave .

And some adopted children do indeed get to choose .

Adoption is about loss for everyone concerned . There are no winners. I know you want to believe it is so, because it suits your argument . But you are wrong .

Adoption, like life, isn't black and white, it's just shades of grey .

Yes. K. I agree it's a simplification, but it wasn't actually the point of my post. I'm trying to say that many people who come to these threads have been very deeply hurt. Whether they come for help or to offer suggestions, the normal argy bargy of an online forum, may not be a reasonable way to deal with them. Maybe we should 'give a flying fuck' about their feelings, even when we don't agree with them.

Surely when they're wrong and giving bad advice we can point it out though?

Because that's what happened here.

Offredalba, my comment about not giving a fuck is in direct response to the "clique" comments as I said in my previous post. I'm tired of posters offering totally incorrect information and then calling other posters names when they aren't agreed with. An alternate viewpoint to being a lone voice on a thread is that perhaps you are wrong and no one else agrees with you because they can see the glaring issues with your assertion.
I was actually really interested in jellys early comments about how her adoption name change made her feel. I was less keen on her subsequent advice which happens to be incorrect.

Just working my way through the comments. Familyvonstrop i haven't been challenged or corrected on what i have said at all. The thing about the solicitor - I suspect I know a great deal more about both how LAs work and how solicitors work than you do. And in relation to due process, it is pretty clear that some of the adopters do not know or understand the issues or the law, and some were saying tell no one, and honesty is not the best policy - which was their means to the end - which is excellent advice if they want to get the children they want, but it is not the best thing for the children necessarily. You can dress it up how you want - that is what has been said. I don't mind discussing the issues but I do mind the accusations. Kristina argued the toss over whether I have a new birth certificate. Semantics. The old one still exists. The new one has a completely different set of facts on it. I would say new birth certificate. OP comes on and makes and utterly inappropriate comment about bms, then Ironcially tells me I have been aggressive... then Pockets misquoted misunderstood misquoted misunderstood on and on and on. So... I don't think your comments are valid. But if you don't give a shiny shit, then fine - just keep it to yourself.

As for reporting to mnhq, actually I think it is better that all of your comments stand.

tldr surely when they're wrong and giving bad advice we can point it out though? yes you can. And so can I. Tough talking. I think it is really, really bad advice to tell people to not be honest. We are talking about vulnerable children. And complex issues of identity and loss which quite possibly other professionals around you will understand better, from both their experience and the fact that they do not have the personal desperation to do with the match.

Offredalba has come on and tried to explain how other parts of the triangle feel and rather than validating that and exploring it, she has been told she is wrong.

Katrina, I think that an awful lot of people who give up posting in this section (because of the aggro) do in fact have a very good understanding of the issues you are talking about.

I won't keep it to myself jelly. It's a public forum and I will say what I like within the boundaries of the sites rules. You have zero right or position to tell me to "just keep it to yourself". And how noble of you to leave my accurate posts to stand and not report them.

Problem with your post jelly - I DO know more than you about the facts of the topic being discussed - every time you post you make that abundantly clear. Again, a solicitor won't advise on a non legal policy that an LA may or may not have. Hence the fact that a change of names is totally legal and is on the adoption form. Using my own situation - how would a solicitor have advised me on my LA's views when my sw was totally relaxed about a name change, my LO's sw was furious and the panel chair was adamant that a name change was the only route for my son. Three opinions. They all work for the same LA. So please explain how a solicitor would help. They have to draw up a spreadsheet of opinions. And how would ironic have ever anticipated that a QUESTION about this would destroy her match? Not a name change but a question.

You say adopters here don't understand the law - for about the 10th time, name changing is legal. There is a little box on the form that asks the new name. I understand your personal argument about your own feelings on the matter and your view that identity may well be damaged - that's your own emotions about it and I'm certain other adoptees would agree - but not all would and it doesn't negate the reasons why adopters still choose to do so. But your insistance on couching it as dishonesty, not following due process and legality/illegality is ridiculous.

How other parts of the triangle feel is great info to hear and i find huge insight from talking to adoptees and birth parents.
Not so great is when you tell me wrongly that I'm not following due process or legality. Or when you advise a poster of incorrect facts. Or give advice that's totally unrealistic. Or when you tell a poster she must be wrong about her experience and that something else must have happened.
Are you totally unable to see the difference?

a solicitor won't advise on a non legal policy that an LA may or may not have I don't know what you mean by this, but a solicitor would give advice in the way I indicated in my first response to you. I wasn't talking about your situation. I was answering your question. I said what I would do, nothing more nothing less.

In relation to my ignorance on the process I highlighted where I was ignorant. Others have shown ignorance too. It is a forum.

Or when you advise a poster of incorrect facts. There have been zero incorrect facts which have been highlighted - just misunderstandings and misquoting.

Or give advice that's totally unrealistic. it isn't unrealistic.

Or when you tell a poster she must be wrong about her experience and that something else must have happened. I didn't. I have already explained that more than once. I said first maybe it was for another reason as my first response, and the poster came back and said it was for that reason, they had a letter about it, and I have no reason to disbelieve. I have said that more than once.

Offred is not wrong to talk about the triangle of adoption, that heartbreaking web of loss that connects birth families, children, and adoptive families. It is a key part of therapeutic parenting, to learn to "hold" that balance for your adopted child and help them to operate within it.

Where people (well, me at least) did get hurt was the interpretation that anyone at all is a winner in that triangle. It is not always a tidy equilateral triangle, the points get pulled around, the balance changes, but the links remain. Regrettably, the damage and trauma in the children is there, always. Probably, the earlier hurt experienced by birth families prior to becoming parents remains too, and that is often tragic. Adopters also hold loss and hurt, which is as valid. They hold grief for the emotional and physical health denied to their child, among a whole raft of other things. They experience secondary trauma, sometimes physical hurt at the hands of their hurting children, and as Kr1stina described, often untenable pressure on their marriages or families. There is a huge cost to pay, in order to try our best to heal these children, and everyone in the adoption triangle pays it.

rather that wasn't actually the point of my post and while I honestly believe that there are no greater losses in life than the loss of a child or a mother, I don't think that it helps any of us to compete on who suffers the most. Sorry if it hurt you.
tldr I'm not sure that there is such a thing as absolute right or wrong in adoption. I think that we all tend to view issues through the lens of our own experiences and they are all unique. What is right for one child and family won't be right for another, and you unfortunately have the job of trying to figure out what is right for your child. I get it that it is not easy.
I don't post here often because I've been told that my veteran experience of adoption is irrelevant. However, I can see that Jelly was trying to support children with her advice, and her experience is clearly relevant. I don't think that it was reasonable to accuse her of having incarnations ????

Jellyfish - you seem completely unwilling to admit when you are wrong.

The facts you have stated about name changes are wrong.

People are not willing to let untrue statements go without challenge on these boards , because it may adversely affect vulnerable children and their families . I'm sorry if you find that upsetting but that's how it is . They are not doing it because they are ' out to get you' , they are doing it because they care about kids .

People get frustrated with you because you seem completely unwilling to accept when you are wrong .

Eg . You stated categorically that you got new full birth certificate when in fact you have an adoption certificate. But I am in the wrong for posting that out, not you. Because I have " argued the toss ".

The fact that you may FEEL it's the same things is immaterial , if you had just said that " I have an adoption certificate but I feel its a new birth certificate " then no one would have disagreed with you.

They are notthe same in law and they are not the same to me . I feel very upset when you say that it's the same thing when it's not . This has a deep and profound meaning for me and for many other adoptees .

You post incorrect facts and then get uppity when that's pointed out to you, very politely .

You make outrageous allegations of wrong doing then refuse to withdraw them when it's shown that you are wrong .

You tell other parents that they are not acting in the best interest of their child, when you know @*@ all about it .

And your response is , as always ,

1. All you adopters are a clique and big bullies because you don't agree with me

2 . You just disagree with me because I'm an adoptee and you don't want to hear from me , the sole and self appointed spokesperson for all adoptees and birth parents everywhere in the universe for all time .

And no, offredalba isn't claiming to speak for " other parts of the triangle " either . Last time I checked she was just speaking for herself and her own experiences , just like the rest of us . none of us are spokespeople for anything , we are just individuals . Except you of course .

< sigh>

And if you actually bothered to read the adoption boards you would find that we have plenty birth family members who are well able to speak for themselves just fine , thank you. Because they are smart , articulate and thoughtful women. You know, just like the rest of us .

They are not " other " or outsiders who need you to speak for them . They are an integral part of this community .

And guess what ? ( suprise suprise ) . We mostly get on perfectly well , because we concentrate on what we have in common ( grief and loss, love for our kids, frustration with the system ) and not on attacking each other .

its an approach I'd reccomend to you

Sorry, X posted with offredalba . Must learn to refresh page .

You're right, it's not a suffering contest and I do now see more of the point you were making. I don't agree with it, but I'm sure we can both live with that! It's difficult for me to believe that there "are no greater losses" than those you describe, because to me it seems to sanctify an idealised relationship, where the reality in some cases is years of very deliberately inflicted harm. I can, of course, see that the original bond between mother and child is primal, and to sever it is one of the most extreme things that can happen - but to my mind, that severance or breaking occurs through the actions of abuse, neglect and trauma, far before a child is eventually removed.

^ took too long to post and cross-posted with Kristina. My above post was meant to reply to Offredalba, sorry.

If anyone still cares... Jelly's input on why changing name is a bad idea (in her opinion) would have been a useful contribution to thread. Jelly insisting that honesty is best policy etc, not so much.

I also take Jelly's point about the professionals. Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could rely on them to actually be experts? We can't though. They're not. They're overworked SWs, sometimes enacting blanket policy. Or, as per VonStrop, disagreeing between themselves.

I don't believe any adopter making it through the assessment process now would change a name for no reason. And we all are doing the best for our kids, and actually, that means that sometimes we do know better than the SWs.

And in any case, the fucking law says we can change names without approval of SS or anyone else.

And FWIW, I don't give a shite about being called a clique though I'd rather be a tribe, and I've no idea how you'd tell whether it stops people posting.

There's certainly lots of new posters. Maybe it's people spouting nonsense that stops them posting. Or maybe they don't stop posting, or maybe they've just nothing to say. How would we ever know?

As ever, other forums are available.

And another FWIW, if you're allowed two at once, everything I've said about this thread has been on this thread. I'm not cliqueing away with anyone elsewhere.

If anyone still cares... Jelly's input on why changing name is a bad idea (in her opinion) would have been a useful contribution to thread. Jelly insisting that honesty is best policy etc, not so much

I agree totally. There is a difference between offering insight to one's own experience/emotions and making factually incorrect statements and expecting others to accept them as truth because you are part of the adoption triangle.