Advise please

[Catvsworld]

Hi We are with a agncey

We would like to change our child's name less than 100 children have been born in the U.K. With the name

Also sw admitted that BM had been Facebook stalking siblings

Our sw has told us that though the LA may kick up a stink they can't actually stop us putting the new name on the AO

Is this correct we want to put the old name as the middle name and the new name first

Kristina, I hear what you say (I don't agree with all of it but no reason why that should be a problem!) but NB just to clarify that I said a name shouldn't be changed without consulting the person but a child couldn't be involved in the consultation and therefore the name should not be changed without good reason. But I also said there were exceptions, obviously.

However, the key thing - my reading of this thread was that a number of posters were saying change the name before AO without discussing it with anyone - are you saying you have no obligation to discuss the change of name with anyone or get the courts approval before AO? Because I understood the opposite. Does anyone know?

I would say a change of name and a new birth certificate is fundamentally a new identity, and adoptees issues over identity are not the same as those of teenagers - for a start the issues for many adoptees last well beyond the teenage years. I don't have identity issues by the way but I think that is because I left home early, as a teenager, and had to learn to be independent and self reliant as a teenage. I can live with the birth certificate even though it irritates me.

Tell me honestly, if you had a baby/adopted a baby and you found out when they were, say, 2 that you had a terminal illness and their prospects were adoption/another adoption...would you honestly feel absolutely comfortable with the idea that there would a new birth certificate, a change of name (from the perspective of the child's well being)? If so, then maybe the way I see it is unusual.

In relation to your children I hope that they are enjoying your security now!

I know you were adopted - can you not relate to what I have said at all?

I haven't met many people who are naive about the care system though. Most people who don't know much about it know they don't know much about it. I was in it. And had an impressive number of addresses : )

I just saw your latest post. Sorry about my flippant impressive number of addresses comment.

I can relate to a great deal of what you are saying . And much of what you have said about your adoption concerns me a great deal and I can see that you have been unhappy . I am not dismissing your experinces or feelings .

But I'm not entirely convinced that your childhood would have been idyllic if your parents had not changed your surname . I suspect that the causes of your unhappiness are more complex than that .

You haven't told me about how you consulted your own children about their choices names ? And when a name becomes " real " ? I'd like to hear your views on this .

You asked about my children - if I discovered that I was terminally ill, the least of my concerns about my children's welfare would be that one of them might change their name. My first and only concern would be that they would be happy and have a loving family to grow up in.

I have given then half of their genetic heritage and most of the Love and care they have received for all of their Childhood . None of that would be altered if they changed their names .

I don't understand what you are saying about new birth certificates because I live in the Uk and children don't get new birth certificates here .

Re adoption orders - of course the courts have to grant the adoption order, there's no other way to adopt a child in the uK . The name isn't changed legally until the adoption order is granted. Adopters can't change a name without the persmision of the court .

I understand that you feel that a new name is " fundamentally a new identity " for you , but it's not for many the tens of thousands of people who do it each year .

My main issue with this thread was that I thought that people were basically talking about getting name changes in through the back door, or at least that is how I read it. Was I wrong? If a security issue or other issue is so serious that a name needs to be changed it should be done with the consensus of the relevant people and explained and discussed, ie due process, surely. Or am I wrong and there is no due process? You were confident about the SWs and the court when it came to approving you as an adopter and approving a child for placement, and so why the change of heart now? A court would need all the relevant information and views of all the relevant professionals to form a decision about whether a name change was the right thing surely?

I was then responding to you saying that no one had raised identity as an issue and I said well actually it can be.

I think a few other issues are being confused. When children are born, they are given names within 6 weeks (from memory) and they are issued with a birth certificate. What I said was that I was not happy about my name being changed, and the reason for that was because it made me feel like a nonperson, and it was not related to the fact that my bio parents had given me the name. So ... parents or the person with legal responsibility give children names. So no I wouldn't consult my children on their names. But I was not happy about having my name changed. Does that make sense?

As a child I felt like a non person and i do think it is to do a practical issue. Does that make sense.

I am british and I have a british passport and a NEW birth certificate dating from my adoption. My original birth certificate is no longer available. So I am not sure what you mean by saying it doesn't happen in the UK?

So that is me. How many people feel the same way about name and identity? I do not know. You do not know. As I said, whether adoptees feel the change of name/identity is an issue may be to do with whether the adoption was successful, but may not. Would I feel the same way if the adoption had been a success? I don't know for sure but I suspect yes.

People discuss name changes to do with marriage, to do with children, to do with not liking their given name, etc etc. I don't think my views are very unusual.

I forgot to mention, your comment that the adoption has made me unhappy is not true. It didn't work mainly because we are different people. The identity issues are a source of irritation but I don't feel strong enough to take a test case to the courts.

By I don't feel strong enough I mean I don't care enough, not that I couldn't cope. Life is too short, choose your battles and all that - it irritates me but I can live with it.

My comment about no one raising identity as an issue was a factual one referring to some specific threads about changing the name of a baby or toddler . I wasn't saying that no one ever has any identity issues or cares about changing their name . It wasn't a comment about the whole world, just about certain threads and the issues around changing the name of a baby.

I do know that your views are very common and that many people hold them, but that doesn't mean that I agree. Specifically I disagree that :

1. Biological parenst ( like you ) have the right to name your children and change that name if you want but adoptive parents do not .

1. Adoptees entire identity is their name so it cannot be changed , but non adoptees have complex identities and can change their names if they wish .

Surely you can see the irony of your saying that your parents didn't have the right to name you and didn't consult you but you have the right to name your children without consulting them ?

I'm afraid this is redolent of the commonly expressed view that parents who give birth are " real " and have more rights that other parents . Can you see why this view is offensive ( as well as factually inccurate ) ?

When you named your children , did you consult a social worker and " relevant professionals " ? Why did you think you were smart enough to do it without any advice from experts?

What about parents who change their child's name by deed poll? People who do it on marriage or divorce ? should they all have to go to court and do it :

" with the consensus of the relevant people and explained and discussed, ie due process, surely. Or am I wrong ...... A court would need all the relevant information and views of all the relevant professionals to form a decision about whether a name change was the right thing surely? "

" Don't be ridiculous" I hear the cry , " I'm a REAL parent, it's a free country , I can call my child what I want . I should be trusted to do what's best for my child until my unfitness as a parent has been proved . Not like you fake parents. Even though you have been examined and approved by the proper authorities , you and your children should not have the freedoms that the rest of us enjoy. You are second class citizens " .

You still haven't answered my questions about when a name becomes " real " and if we have damaged our child's identity by changing the name we had called him for nearly a year ? Who should we have asked about it and when ?

Re legal issues - I think you are confused about how adopted childrens names are changed legally on adoption . This is requested as part of the adoption petition and it's approved by THE COURT .

The " relevant people " as you put it are the judge and the child's parents . The court can ask for any information that it wants . Adoptive parents don't share parental rights with social workers - they have the same rights as other parents . You know, like you .

Re your new " birth certificate " - I am also extremely confused to hear that you were issued with a new birth certificate when you were adopted in the UK. AFAIK the current system has been in place since the 1920s in England and the 1930s in Scotland and I'm guessing you were not born before that ?

Adopted children get something called an " extract of an entry in the adopted childrens register" Non adopted children get one called " extract of an entry in a register of births " . If you have a full new birth certificate then I think you need to check if it's authentic . You can do this by checking with the registrars office .

If you wish a copy of your first birth certificate, you can indeed get one, it's IS available to you ( but not to the public ) . Again you need to contact the registrars office .

I'm sorry if I mistakenly concluded that you were unhappy about your adoption.

I got this impression from your comments about feeling " like a non person who was being transferred as chattel, as though I wasn't real, I was just an object being controlled by people around me, and although as an adult in the greater scheme of things I can let it go, if I was able to change back to my birth details through the courts easily and without evidence or hassle then I would" and your saying that your adoption wasn't a success.

So sorry for my misunderstanding .

Kristina, I respect your views but a couple of things you said weren't exactly right, I don't think:

1. It is NOT the case that I could freely change the names of my dc on their birth certificate - it can only be done in limited situations. I could change the name by deed poll but only if it is in the best interest of the child - and this is to do with identity as were the other comments you read on the other threads even if that word wasn't used, I think. Exactly the same process for you an adopter AFTER the adoption. (This thread is talking about the situation BEFORE the adoption (before the AO) and people on here are talking about dishonesty, which is not great, and on the face of it clearly not following due process?).

1. Re the new birth certificate, is this another case of semantics? The long form (which I have only ever had to get hold of once in my life) might be called the adoption certificate (I can't remember) but it is treated as the birth certificate by the authorities. The short form has "certificate of birth" on it, exactly the same as my dh's (he is not adopted) and has my adoptive name on it, not my birth name.

In relation to feeling like a non person, I was talking about the PAST not the present. I got over it and moved on. But if I felt like that then, it is possible that others did too, or still do.

I completely get that you disagree about these things, and I respect your views in that we can agree to disagree. I agree with much of what you have said on other threads about sw practice - a close family member was a child protection social worker and I have seen things you have seen (although i understood that the judges got a rap over the knuckles back in 2013 and that things were better now).

No one's talking about dishonesty or not following due process. 'Due process' is that on the application for the AO the adoptive parents include the name they'd like the child to be called.

The issue is, and this is why PP's are urging caution, is that prior to AO, and definitely prior to placement prospective adopters have no/few rights and SW's can be unpredictable.

I have heard of a link being unlinked because prospective parents asked child's SW where they stood on changing name. I have heard of matching panels saying no if they hear prospective parents are planning name change.

On our prep course a SW actually told us if we were going to do it not to tell anyone.

So, whilst it would be lovely to tell everyone, you can see why they don't. And 'due process' is still being followed.

Tldr one poster says "I wish we had lied and not told them. Do what you feel is best. Honesty is not always the best policy, sadly".

Re the issue of consulting with the relevant people if there is a security risk

well that is our whole issue the LA have said that they have a blanket policey on this so not matter the reason they will not support name change so if the child was called Hitler star fish brown they would not support name change and if the child was called poop plop King they would not support name change there is not really any were for me to go with that as they wont even discuss it

Tbh were going to just put the new name on the AO Amd if the judge raises it we will tell her or him that the LA have a blanket ban under any circumstances and had no other choice if they did things on a case by case basis then we could of had a discussion

Were about 3 weeks from putting in our order and I agree with tldr

Sw are fundermnatlly against this even though it's not t here choice as said it states what name the adopter would like not surname but names first and seconed

jellyfish, did you read the rest of that poster's post? All SW's on board with name change, done to avoid having two kids in same family with same name and matching panel still deferred, which would have been horrific for adopters, because they would have been terrified that it as all going to fall through and bad for the child who ended up in care longer than necessary.

Because they were honest and open when they didn't need to be. They could have simply not mentioned it to panel, avoided the stress and had LO home probably months earlier.

tldr yes I did read it all. The poster recommended dishonesty because they thought the end justified the means?

Clearly it is an issue as panel deferred. Possibly there is wider research which shows changing a name has a detrimental affect but I wouldn't know without looking it up. Does the panel ask in direct terms "do you want to change the name"? Or do they just ask other questions and expect you to raise it?

But in general terms i do think we have a different mindset about this. You say:

"which would have been horrific for adopters, because they would have been terrified that it as all going to fall through"

to me this doesn't justify lying - and nb it is the child who has rights not the adoptive parents or the birth parents under law

and

"bad for the child who ended up in care longer than necessary." but this is not necessarily true if the child was happy with foster parents and didn't know about the adoption going ahead, and the other professionals were aware of the situation the child was in still wanted to defer - would you have no respect for that decision?

Re the same name in the family, i don't know the ages involved but presumably the new name could simply be a nickname and that is what panel was getting at? Or the new name changed by deed poll therefore on the passport and on school docs, but not changing the birth certificate? It is not easy to change a first name on the birth certifcate usually as I ahve said - as a bio parent i would only have been able to change a first name if it had been used exclusively in the 12 months after birth (ie identity) or if it was something to do with a baptism) and only once.

Sorry don't mean To be awful but this is support for adopters and not a place for birth parents to push there agenda

I don't really want a lecture on what BP do or don't want ther chance came and went

Before you tell me it is a ludicrous suggestion, re the nickname, i know someone who has been known by their nickname from their school days on to their professional days so their name on work emails and marketing literature and the internet and so on is completely different from the name which HR has for their banking details, and most people don't know their real name. Others are known by second names. And the poster didn't mention security issues just that the name was the same.

catsvworld it is the child who has rights not the bm. but yes your comment was pretty awful, inappropriate and showed you haven't read my posts.

I am out.

Sorry to see that this well argued and thoughtful discussion has caused hurt. Again.
Does it not show exactly why it might be a good idea to separate reflection on adoption experiences, including reunion, from support for adopters with children.
If this is to be a support forum for adoptive parents, then where do adopted adults and 'birth' families go for their support?

Kristina I just re-read your last post to me and some of the sarcastic remarks (which I ignored when I first replied realising that you were upset about things). However, I am now wondering whether you don't believe I was adopted, and like catsvworld think I am a bm and have an agenda? If so, you are both wrong. I was adopted, I am not a bm. It is not ok to personally attack me just because i have views which are different from yours.

There's a thread in Relationships for support for adoptees offredalba.

I can't believe anyone thinks having two children in one family called 'Will' and 'Bill' is ok. And I can't see why an adopted child should have to go through life being called by their nickname or outing themselves as adopted every time they refer to their sibling. And sws are mostly fucking power crazed fools so why we'd let them have a say over anything in the name of 'due process' is beyond me. Especially when an actual judge is going to do the deciding...

I have no idea what you are talking about . I wasn't sarcastic .

Why would I not believe that you are adopted ? Did I say that ?

I didn't suggest that you are a birth mother. ( Though theres nothing wrong with that and anyway some people are both adoptees and birth mothers. )

You are reading things that I simply didn't say.

Everyone has an agenda , including me . I'm upfront about mine - what's yours ?

I have not personally attacked you, I have disagree with you and asked you to explain various points which you raised in your posts.

You haven't answered many of the things that I asked you .

You seem unclear about a lot of things, such as the court process and adoption paperwork and you've made some upsetting and accusing comments , which I can only think are based on your lack of knowledge and experience in this area and not from an intention to upset people .

You obviously have ( now or have had in the past ) strong feelings about your own family circumstances and you have extrapolated from these to make sweeping comments about all adoptions . You will understand that this will upset some people .

You have accused people of dishonesty and not acting in the best interest of their children . That's quite a harsh thing to say, especially when you have no evidence to back up your allegations .

As you say we will have to agree to disagree .

Sorry me that was in answer to jellyfish , not pockets .

Offredalba - I'm an adoptee.

Katrina i am very, very pleased that you believe what i said about my past, thanks for confirming that. however, i would say the following comments you made are very sarcastic (and rude, and mocking, and insensitive, and offensive):

"Why did you think you were smart enough to do it without any advice from experts?"

"I'm a REAL parent, it's a free country , I can call my child what I want . I should be trusted to do what's best for my child until my unfitness as a parent has been proved . Not like you fake parents. Even though you have been examined and approved by the proper authorities , you and your children should not have the freedoms that the rest of us enjoy. You are second class citizens ".

AFAIK the current system has been in place since the 1920s in England and the 1930s in Scotland and I'm guessing you were not born before that?

If you have a full new birth certificate then I think you need to check if it's authentic . You can do this by checking with the registrars office.

So sorry for my misunderstanding.

I was quite clear about what I was saying, it was not rude or confused (I hightlighted the bits I wasn't sure about and asked questions), and I do think you should go back and read it again if you think it was. It was direct - I think the idea of an adopter saying honesty is not the best policy is less than ideal.

In terms of agenda, if I read something on here which I think is wrong, or insensitive, or triggering then I will pass comment. If I read something about which I have experience and I think I can help I will pass comment. i am happy to debate too. What more can I say?

In terms of when is a name real, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have already said a child is named soon after birth and after that point it seems generally accepted that there is an identity - both legally and emotionally. you disagree with that, and agreed we can agree to disagree. I wish I knew more about the research re the affect of changing names.

Pockets, you trust the sw to accept you as an adoptee, to determine there has been previously neglect or abuse or serious threat of future harm so serious that the child should be separated from the birth family by adoption (a draconian measure according to the courts) and you have welcomed a child into your life on that basis? how can you trust them in that respect but not in others? And remember I am asking that as an adoptee, questioning the system, not as a bm with an agenda. In relation to judges, Katrina has expressed a view that judges only do what sws tell them on another thread and historically there has been some truth in it (judicially recognised). And I thought that the issue here was that if it were not raised as an issue the judge may not realise it needed his/her consideration. but I don't know that for sure.

The problem is, in a nutshell, that if a SW or matching panel objects to the idea of an adoptive parent changing the name, then it might not ever get as far as a judge because SWs/matching panel can stop the link/match and the prospective adopters have absolutely no rights/recourse if that happens. (This is of course different to a child being removed from birth family/placed for adoption where there are a series of checks, balances and laws and it's not decided on at the whim of a SW/panel.)

Matching panel don't routinely ask you so if you don't tell them, you simply don't tell them, no lying involved.

Re certificates etc. I have my DCs' in front of me right now. Short form ones are 'birth certificates' in new name, with no parent info on long form ones are 'adoption certificates' with all the new details.

She still hasn't managed to answer the question the the child was called

"Hitler poop" then should that stand or if for example your a seek adopter and your adopting a child called Mohammed should Thant stand it would be culturally isolating for that child and it's unlikely they would be expected buy there wider sheik coummity

And it jelly thinks that names given by parents would never be so far out then she clearly has not been on adoption link

Were you have children named After the father who sexually abused them or children named after the BM pimp or children of acholics named after there no favourite drink or children given silly names simply for the purpous or finding them later on

When sw won't even let you change a name from sofie to Sophie then your on to a loosing battle