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Adoption

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on adoption.

Advise please

200 replies

Catvsworld · 11/04/2016 21:13

Hi We are with a agncey

We would like to change our child's name less than 100 children have been born in the U.K. With the name

Also sw admitted that BM had been Facebook stalking siblings

Our sw has told us that though the LA may kick up a stink they can't actually stop us putting the new name on the AO

Is this correct we want to put the old name as the middle name and the new name first

OP posts:
thefamilyvonstrop · 18/05/2016 16:57

Name changing is a nightmare. We had a pretty clued up sw but as ironic says, there is no guarantee on how they might respond to even a tentative question about it. Our LO had 2 extremely unusual names. First name is a series of letters put together because that was what Bm liked. There are 4 differing spellings on his paperwork prior to her making the final decision. Second name is a siblings choice. Safe to say my LO would win at scrabble if names were allowed.
Our choice was to change it and risk the match being withdrawn and child removed. Or spend a lifetime panicking every time the name was shouted out. Social media would have been an open door straight to our child.
For anyone thinking the risks are hypothetical - an adopter friend took her LO with a moderately unusual name to A&E. A doctor called out their name - a neighbour of birth family heard it and called birth father to ask why the child was in hospital. Cue police escorts off the premises.

Just out of interest, what good would asking a solicitor for help have done for ironic?? What rights would you suggest she invoked? Pre adoption order, adopters have shared PR but no legal rights - hence we aren't involved in any of the adoption hearings and all major decisions are taken by the LA. Pre linking /matching - the potential adopters have no more legal rights than the kindle I'm using to right this.

thefamilyvonstrop · 18/05/2016 17:36

write

jellyfishschool · 18/05/2016 21:59

I am sorry but a lot of the comments on here are just absolute nonsense. And a total empathy bypass - yes i agree, but not by me! Good lord - are you the only ones to feel pain and loss?!

catsvworld If you read my first posts they are not goady. They are responding to what had been said and what I wrote was perfectly fine. You have been goady.

Kristina, I don't know how many times I have to say it but I have not said adopters have fewer rights! Not once! I said before the AO adopters need to involve other people assuming that that was the due process. I said that afterwards the "rights" were the same but that essentially under law it is the child which has rights. I have said that so many times! And your extrapolations/you summary of my "argument" is simply wrong! What I said can be summarised as follows:

  1. My name change affected my sense of identity and made me feel like a non person. I said expressly that I only spoke for myself; and
  2. I thought adopters should follow due process; and later
  3. i did not thing that the suggestion that people should not be honest was justified on any level.
Re I have repeatedly asked you to explain logically why you think that a group of people should lose some of their legal rights what are you talking about? What legal rights are being lost??? Please re read my posts before you reply. And please re-read the one you sent to me which I found sarcastic.

ironically, again you write as though adopters have more knowledge than the average, than me, etc. You don't. I have already said (several times) that I don't know the exact process but if you think that means I cannot contribute to the discussion you are wrong. The "we" was infact on a thread where adopters were saying "we are the experts"... the person who said it was not an expert. I have contributed to the thread with a reasoned argument and you are trying to suggest that what I have said is crap because you have done more research...?????

I think it is really, really sad that this discussion has disintegrated but I really don't think I could have put forward my contribution in any way which could have prevented it. I think it is a damn cheek I have been blamed for it.

thefamilyvonstrop · 18/05/2016 22:53

To be fair, I think lots of adopters have more knowledge than "the average" - after all, the average person don't spend years trawling through legal reports, blogs, forums, courses, books etc. on adoption related topics. Many of us work hard at building our knowledge because we have to in order to parent our children.
This is clearly a hot button for you jelly - as you say, your change in surname left you feeling a sense of identity loss. I totally understand that and I'm aware my decision to change my son's name may in future years create a similar sense of loss in him
However I have to weigh up the issues as I see them and make the best decision I can knowing all of this - like many adoption related decisions I make, I'm not trying to decide on the right decision but the lesser of many evils. The comment that I somehow didn't follow due process is a big hot button right back at me. I agonised over it - and the point others are making is that all sws and LA's have their own views, none of which are "due process". The views of many sws are down to "accepted wisdom" pre- the Internet era and haven't yet caught up with technology. The Internet is a game changer for our children and it's parents that have to manage the fallout not social workers.

MypocketsarelikeNarnia · 18/05/2016 22:55

Well I think you have it there op -

Rachel Jones = 20 votes
Hitler Banana Plop = 1 vote (plus your sw, and ironically's sw)

LarrytheCucumber · 19/05/2016 08:35

I was just thinking about this this morning. We have fostercarers in the family.
Child 1 went to a family who had already adopted a child with a similar name (think Christine/Christopher)so they changed the child's first name and made birth name middle name.
Child 2 was given two diminutives by BP ( think Jonny Tim) so adopters registered child as Jonathan Timothy, but continued to call him Jonny.
Child 3 kept birth name.
Child 4 has a birth name adopters don't like. Would they be allowed to give him a new first name and make birth name his second name? I don't know what the rules are. The child they have already adopted is called by an ordinary name, this child has a name which sounds like a soap character.
I have a friend who was adopted 60 years ago and was given a totally different name from birth name and doesn't mind at all, but things were different then.

tldr · 19/05/2016 08:51

Larry, that's kind of the problem.

The law says they're allowed.
SWs/matching panels often decide they're not. And could stop match happening. And adopters can't even be sure that asking their opinion won't cause problems.

LarrytheCucumber · 19/05/2016 09:27

It is likely to go to foster to adopt, so they would have to use birth name initially I suppose. Baby is very young and birth name has two syllables, so I suppose that if it was done on adoption baby would not really remember the original name especially if replaced with another two syllable one.

user1463594374 · 19/05/2016 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LarrytheCucumber · 19/05/2016 09:59

Why don't you start a new thread asking your question? You are more likely to attract replies that way.

user1463594374 · 19/05/2016 10:25

Sorry ive managed to put my thread in wrong place & dont know how to move it. Ive not used forums before.

tldr · 19/05/2016 10:44

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/adoptions
Somewhere here there'll be a 'add thread' option to start a new thread. Depends on if you're using phone or laptop or whatever though.

There are people around who'll be able to help you so it's worth doing.

user1463594374 · 19/05/2016 10:51

Thank you. Im really not good with these things...but will try again

jellyfishschool · 20/05/2016 21:54

thefamilyvonstrop, thanks for explaining your point of view. I think it is wonderful that adopters read into the subject, but it is a huge subject, and it is very likely that bms and adoptees and other non-adopters will be able to help at times, or want to comment, and as far as mnhq is concerned that is a good thing I think. Most adoptees giving advice or passing comment on here will have dealt with their own issues very adequately - unless someone is actually telling you it is all your fault, it is highly unlikely they are projecting! I think my posts are really, really clear yet they have been misread, and I have been accused of saying things I have not said. And in relation to dishonesty I was quoting a pp. To answer your question about a solicitor, I would expect a local and experienced (in adoption) solicitors to have an insight into the LA and its practices and would be able to advice on vires and provide other information which would provide insight and give you realistic expectations, and it may affect how you approach things. It wouldn't be about rights or court actions. Some will have worked within the relevant department of the LA.

In relation to matching, I appreciate that for an adopter it is a highly emotive subject but it is worth bearing in mind that the professionals involved (if they are doing their job properly) will throw all the info about the adopter into the pot and views on names would be thrown into the pot to form a picture of the adopter. In my situation poor matching was painful both for me and for my adoptive parents, and it took a little while for the poor matching to show (the younger years are usually much easier for both the adopter and the adoptee, generally, I think). I do think that some of the comments of the adopters on here betray a lack of wider understanding - it is ironic that the same comment has been made about me! So there it is.

I am not sure tldr is right when she says legally you can change names but sws don't like it. Legally, the court would decide whether the name should be changed but it isn't done in a vacuum. An adoption body writes "adopted children usually keep their first names and take their adopted family surname. In some circumstances this may be unsafe, and you will be able to discuss this during your assessment or when matching with a child" so the implication is most certainly that it is expected to be raised as an issue by the adopter, I would say. If some of you disagree then each to their own.

To me the idea that a LA has a blanket policy is bonkers but I really think the OP should check their understanding of this.

in terms of security the problems raised sound like a nightmare, although again I do see this in a slightly wider perspective. For example, people have stalkers, paedophiles look at social media, etc. Adopters have to manage social media and names etc but so do other people.

Ironically, I have read around modern adoption, not about name changing. I have said elsewhere in the thread that I wish I knew more about research around namechanging.

in terms of bullying, yes there is bullying in this section in my opinion. I wasn't talking about this thread, though, I was talking about other threads, in response to what ironically had said to me. Having said that, I have had a pm of support! I have looked back over old threads and I have found not one example of an adoptee or bm giving advice or passing comment (as opposed to asking for support) where it has been received favourably - in every case in fact the adoptee has been told they were projecting (the exception being the very recent thread about the new section, obviously...). In some threads, the adoptee has aware of information, correctly, which the adopters were not aware of.

For me, the issues around adoption are important and I think it would be better to have more adoptees and bms and outsiders passing comment in this section.

MintyLizzy9 · 20/05/2016 22:07

in terms of security the problems raised sound like a nightmare, although again I do see this in a slightly wider perspective. For example, people have stalkers, paedophiles look at social media, etc. Adopters have to manage social media and names etc but so do other people.

I'm out.

jellyfishschool · 20/05/2016 22:20

I am sorry if that comment upset you, mintylizzy. having a stalker is pretty darn terrifying and dc are a target. but if the comment upset then then apologies.

thefamilyvonstrop · 20/05/2016 22:38

Jelly, are you saying I should have considered leaving my child's original birthname intact, allowing birth family to approach him easily via social media at a young age, or spot him in a local paper. And I should do that because another family might have a stalker? I'm totally lost as to your point.

tldr · 20/05/2016 23:51

In some circumstances this may be unsafe, and you will be able to discuss this during your assessment or when matching with a child" so the implication is most certainly that it is expected to be raised as an issue by the adopter, I would say. If some of you disagree then each to their own.

ironically tried this. But each to their own.

Italiangreyhound · 21/05/2016 02:17

jellyfishschool, Hi, I am sorry you had distress in your life due to name changes or adoption. You mentioned me pages ago and I have only just seen this...

Re "To me the comment by italian about birth mothers not being able to care for the child and therefore why should they get to choose the name completely misses the point, and to me isn't very appropriate on a forum for the whole triangle."

I am sorry if you found my comment offensive, it was not my intention.

But if a parent loses, or relinquishes, the parental role I feel they cannot claim some aspects of parenting. It's just a fact. Their choice of name doesn't get to stay if it is not in the child's best interest.

I certainly do not express any negative views to my son about his birth mum or dad. But they failed to care for him and they do not get to decide what is now in his best interests.

Having said this, we chose to keep our son's names, something I really hope I will not regret, and something which in the modern social media world should be a very real consideration for all adoptive parents.

I am entitled to my own opinions and do not think what I said was inappropriate here. Especially when you bear in mind that (again in my opinion) social workers tend to 'guilt' adoptive parents into not changing a name, which, if name-changing were to be in the child's best interests, would make that decision a wrong decisions.

We kept our son's middle name despite the fact that he himself did not want it! I was very torn. I still wonder if I did the right thing. His name is unusual. It may identify him, as such he may end up using a nick name on social media. If I had my time again I may well do things differently.

I am very sure any issues my son may have in the future will be as a result of the fact the very people who should have cared for him and treasured him were, sadly, not able to do so. I think this would be the same whether we kept his name, as we did, or changed it.

And one thing that does change as the years roll by is I love him more and more and want to do more for him; I might now fight more to change his name, but now he is at school it would probably be very detrimental to him to go in with a new name! But to some degree I was 'cowed' by the social workers who strongly encouraged I keep his name not, I believe, because it was in his best interests but because it was significant for birth family.

Italiangreyhound · 21/05/2016 02:24

Identity if so much more than a name, to me.

I am Mrs Greyhound to some, Italian to others, over the years I've been IT/ITY/Greyhoundy, and various versions of my 'real' name. My most treasured name and identity is 'mum' and the decisions I've made for my children have been always what I thought was best at the time.

When social services approve a match at panel and after the adoption order is granted all decisions go to the parent. So there is by that time no better 'expert' in the life of that child. After living with us for six months I believe I knew our son better than anyone else.

MypocketsarelikeNarnia · 21/05/2016 16:55

So op is mistaken about her la's blanket policy. She should go back and check - she's obviously got it wrong because social workers don't do stupid things.

ironically just wasn't the right match for those children. She is wrong to think she was rejected for children, who were in every other respect a good match, purely on the basis that she enquired about changing names. She's assured you that she has that in writing but she's wrong.

Adopters can ask about changing names, they shouldn't worry about situations like that which ironically has described because those situations don't really exist. That's true because you read it somewhere.

This is all brilliant news. And very useful to the op. Much more so than anybody's first hand experience of the process.

Biscuit
jellyfishschool · 21/05/2016 21:40

To try to make things less personal, I have googled today and attach 3 docs, with a wide range of interesting views, including one by an adopter (who supports some of your views) for balance:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/08/whats-in-a-name-adopted-children (the author is a rep of a local adoption panel)

www.mnadopt.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Naming-Your-Adopted-Child_Guide-for-Parents.pdf

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/29/should-adoptive-parents-change-their-children-s-first-names_n_7326896.html

If any of you have links to research about changing names I would be really happy to see it.

thefamilyvonstrop, it wasn't about you, I was commenting that social media held risks and downsides for all children and for many there are significant risks.

Italian, the main point was that it is the child's rights which are of concern here not the bm's rights. Your comment came across to me as a general comment about all bms - is that what you meant?

Pockets your comments:
So op is mistaken about her la's blanket policy. She should go back and check I said it was worth checking her understanding, just in case.

she's obviously got it wrong because social workers don't do stupid things. I didn't say that
ironically just wasn't the right match for those children. She is wrong to think she was rejected for children, who were in every other respect a good match, purely on the basis that she enquired about changing names. She's assured you that she has that in writing but she's wrong. I said that it might not have been the reason and she then confirmed it was the reason. I haven't said she was wrong.

Adopters can ask about changing names, they shouldn't worry about situations like that which ironically has described because those situations don't really exist. That's true because you read it somewhere. And I haven't said any of that.

I said that my view was that adopters should follow due process, whatever it is, and that I didn't agree with the pp who said that sometimes honesty is not the best policy. In relation to your last para, I would imagine that nothing I have said is going to be liked by the OP, if that is what you mean. I don't think the fact that I am an adoptee rather than an adopter is relevant to what I have said.

MypocketsarelikeNarnia · 21/05/2016 21:45

No you did say all of that. You popped in a bit of 'so there it all is' and 'we have different views' to make it sound a teensy bit softer but it's all there.

jellyfishschool · 21/05/2016 22:06

I didn't say all that, pockets. For a start until today (I googled today) I hadn't read anything I could remember anywhere about changing names (so your comment "that's true because you read it somewhere" is factually wrong). I gave my own opinion. And me saying we should agree to disagree is not making it softer, it is saying that we don't agree on these points and I am not saying I am right I am just saying this is what I think. And telling you how I felt about my name being changed as an example of how an adoptee feels. Just one example.

MypocketsarelikeNarnia · 22/05/2016 09:30

An adoption body writes "adopted children usually keep their first names and take their adopted family surname. In some circumstances this may be unsafe, and you will be able to discuss this during your assessment or when matching with a child" so the implication is most certainly that it is expected to be raised as an issue by the adopter

They wrote it. I'm guessing you read it then?

Your opinion is valid. You disbelieving everything you're told which challenges your preconceptions - even though you have no experience of the subject - just makes people justifiably quite angry with you and really doesn't help the discussion.