Support thread thread for those feeling a bit overwhelmed by the plethora of threads atm

[Kewcumber]

Thats it really - do you feel a bit under siege?! I do.

I feel cross that I seem to be constantly defending a system that I think is far from perfect but that on the whole those attacking have no idea of the ramifications of some of what they are suggesting.

I feel sad that once more adoptive parents seem to be considered the people who aren't quite behaving perfectly enough when the reality is that our children are where they are because their birth parents weren't quite perfect enough.

On one thread, it was suggested that if adoptive parents couldn't deal with sharing their child with birth parents that perhaps they weren;t up to the job and that if a child had been with adoptive parents for 10 years that maybe be child should still be returned to the birth parents if it were discovered there had been a mistake.

I cannot say again and again and again that I think even 1 mistake is a tragedy and that we must make every effort to avoid this. And yet every new starts again with the assumption that adoptive parents are "against" any birth parents. They seem to think that we have no empathy or understanding of the horror birth parents feel at having a child removed - like we're not really parents and we wouldn't feel the same horror at having our children removed. My blood runs cold at the thought of it.

I have also in the last year had a bit of a wake up call about how convincing people you know can be when they swear blind that they didn't do something, that their child has mental health problems and made up stories. When it was all proven to be true, I can;t tell you how much it shook me - even nice "normal" people do dreadful things to their children and it amazes me that social workers see this all the time and still manage (on the whole) to give parents a fair hearing.

I'd love to be able to have a sensible conversation about how many times parents fight and continue to fight for their children and the children are still subsequently adopted - I think that would help me quantify in my own mind how fair this figure of "thousands" thats been bandied around is, because I'm fed up of not being able to refute it for lack of evidence that that doesn;t seem to stop anyone else.


It's wearing and I'm getting sick of it and I've got work to do.

Here endeth the first rant.

[AnywhereOverTheRainbow]

@steppemum

Unfortunately the forcedadoption brigade has a lot of political power, therefore their nonsense gets published a lot. The funny thing is that once family courts will become more transparent, there won't be any reason for them to exist. Yes, it is unfair that SS were not given the opportunity to talk (anonymously, of course).
It is also unfair that they don't get credit for the children they saved and instead they get a lot of blame for the ones they got wrong.

By the way, I lurked around this thread for three days and... Ladies, I really enjoyed to read all these polite and heartfelt posts.
You are really an awesome bunch of people, birth parents and adoptive parents :)

[Inthebeginning]

the daily mail is still trotting them out. virtually every day. They are the first to ambush ss when something goes wrong. Makes me very frustrated!

[AnywhereOverTheRainbow]

inthebeginning

The DM virtually has a lot of crusades going on... one against ss, one againts some characters/actors and so on...
Undoubtedly they will exploit the topic until everyone is so tired that they won't even click on DM links anymore...

[22honey]

I think adopters do a great job. My dad adopted me and he was great (despite eventually shirking his responsibilities when he split with mum and I got into contact with my bio dad aged 10).

But thats not to say when reading a lot of posts on adoption forums (I have always had my BM as my mum but was adopted by younger sisters dad as he brought me up etc, bio dad was working abroad and due to go from before I was conceived) I have noticed many adoptive parents can seem rather bitter and hateful towards the BM for merely existing, even though they wouldnt have their child if it wasn't for 1) The BM giving birth to the child and 2) The BM being incapable in some way.

I sometimes think this attributes to the AP's insecurities about the fact they arn't the bio parent. Especially when adoption has been the only choice the person has to have kids.

I think my point is adopters (usually) know they will be adopting a child from a BP who was unsuitable for some reason. To then be incredibly bitter and annoyed about this fact comes across as rather unrealistic and childish to me. I do accept that it is a very emotional situation and parents are sad if they are to see the child suffering due to BP neglect or attachment problems.

Again people getting angry (which is natural and I have sympathy) because their child still has feelings for the birth family and might still have attachment to BM. This is normal and not the fault of anyone.

There seems to be people who adopt but cannot stand the implications and extra issues that come with it. They cannot accept the involvement whether physical or mental of the birth family and that that is never going to go away. There is also the large chance the child will want to know and probably meet the birth family when older.

Its like some adopters see adopting a child as like getting a rescue dog. It is really quite terrible to see.

I have to admit feeling rather angry at the way BM's are spoke about on here and on other forums on a regular basis. Many AP's know nothing about the whole life circumstances of the BM and that they may be incurably mentally/emotionally/psychologically damaged but that doesnt mean they dont love them and wouldnt have loved to keep their baby if they could. I find lots of the attitudes towards BM's extremely judgemental and often cruel. I think some of it is down to jealousy.

Hope I havnt offended anyone here and I know adopters do a great and challenging job. Its just the nasty, dismissive, judgemental comments that always come up about BM no matter the reason why she doesnt have her child that makes me rather angry.

Just thought id add my opinion. xxx

[Inthebeginning]

I'm not sure where on the adoption board you've seen anything about adoptive mothers being bitter? I've seen a few posts about frustration but no way have I seen bitterness. The only thing I have seen is honesty and empathy. without seeing what you have said I do find your post offensive.

[Hels20]

Thank you, inthebeginning for saying what was on my mind.

Bitter? Absolutely not. Upset, frustrated that BM couldn't prioritise her child's needs ahead of her own, sad that my BM will miss out on my son growing up - yes.

And - with the greatest respect - being adopted by your mother's partner is not quite the same as being adopted from the care system...

[Lilka]

I have never ever seen anyone on here be bitter and angry because their child loves their birth mum or has an attachment to her (ditto other birth family members). So I am really confused as to where that's coming from

I believe that it's essential to accept that your childs birth family will always be there in the background and be able to accept that in your life...at the same time, I think everyone has a right to their feelings no matter what they are, and everyone should have a safe place in which to express them, and I hope this particular adoption forum is a safe place in which to do so, where we can all express our feelings and not be

Interestingly, when talking about contact, birth family with other adoptive parents, I've always been one of the most pro-contact, understanding of how the situation ended up like this etc etc people in the group. Been told by other parents that they don't understand why I'm so understanding and pro-contact and so on. But I do NOT think that my views are so much better than anybody else's, if I did I would be really obnoxious. It just is. Can't help how I feel any more than anybody else can. And in addition to compassion and empathy and sadness for her life, I also feel anger, frustration, confusion and everything else under the sun. Which goes back to "safe place" to express feelings

Also, I think it's absolutely 2000% understandable to feel jealous. Come on, it's called being a human being with feelings. For instance, you adore your child, and wish with all your heart that you had been able to cuddle them as a newborn, and their birth mum did, so you feel jealous that she was able to do that and you were not. And to be angry and hurt because your childs birth mum left them with long term issues? I dont know any adoptive parent with a child who has long term issues who hasn't felt even a little bit angry and hurt by it at some points.

[Lilka]

oops

"and not be attacked or put down for them, but have someone there to say 'it's okay'"

[Angelwings11]

This is an interesting thread. 22honey I was quite offended by some of what you said and I wanted to say that I did not adopt my daughter and see it as getting a rescue dog! You are however entitled to your opinion but I think the saying 'walk a mile in someone else's shoes' is quite pertinent, especially when making sweeping generalisations about AP.

[Shockers]

22honey, I think you need to be a little careful about assuming adopters do so because they can't give birth naturally. Whilst this might be true in some cases, many adopters don't go down the IVF route at all, choosing adoption as their first option. Some are single. Some, like me, fall in love with a foster child and don't want to have biological children after they've adopted.

I, on occasion, rage in frustration against the BM who drank and smoked through her two pregnancies, leaving DD brain damaged. I would much rather she had been born without FAS, LD and epilepsy and stayed with BM, and I had never met her, than be damaged for life, but mine. I say this because I love DD (and I'm only human), also I can see glimmers of the girl she could have been; as it is, she will be dependent on others for the rest of her life.

But I would never, ever say it in front of either of my children... or anyone else in RL.

[Moomoomie]

22honey. If you read the title of this thread you will see it says "support" that is what we do on this section of MN, we support each other, either adoptive parents or birth parents.
We have some amazing birth parents on here who have opened their hearts at the loss of their children, hopefully we in a very small way have offered them some comfort, and they have allowed us, as, adoptive parents see how life is for them.
If you want to make presumptions, read the long list of threads on here, then come back and tell us we are all jealous and bitter.
I love my three girls unconditionally, they will always be my daughters. Do I wish they didn't have to go through the loss they have been through? Of course I do. But I was not the reason they were adopted.

[AnywhereOverTheRainbow]

"I sometimes think this attributes to the AP's insecurities about the fact they arn't the bio parent. Especially when adoption has been the only choice the person has to have kids."

Not sure what you meant by this. Personally, I've thought many times to adopt instead of conceiving a baby, this due to my father, who was a certified monster and to be honest I don't want to transfer my DNA and genes to my babies.
Nothing to do with infertility or other choices I might have.

Sorry but I think your post was very unfair towards the APs, because from what I coud read in this thread, they all seem sensible people and not "trying to get rescue dogs".

[Devora]

22honey, I have to say I found your post grossly unfair and somewhat offensive. Inevitably you get a range of views expressed here, including a range of attitudes to birth parents according to people's different situations. If I had to generalise, I'd say that most adopters express ambivalence, a blend of feeling connected forever to these people who most of us have never met, a searching for understanding, often sympathy, and a sense of loyalty almost, a need to find something positive for our child to connect to. And then, some anger yes, because we love our children and it is impossible - surely? - to not feel anger with people who hurt our children. If we DIDN'T feel that anger, if our attitude was, "Well, I knew there would be some damage but hey, I signed up for this" then THAT would be akin to buying a dog from a rescue centre.

I think that also, on the whole, we have careful and respectful communication on this board between adoptive parents and birth parents. I know I am not alone in valuing this and wanting to preserve it.

And actually, I agree that being legally adopted by your social father is not actually comparable to the situation of our children, who have suffered early trauma and loss of their birth families.

[Kewcumber]

Hope I haven't offended anyone here

Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa!

I've been in a right crap mood all day and poor old DS has borne the brunt of it but that has cheered me right up. I think that has to be quite the most insane comment I've seen on the adoption board (oh and haven't we all seen quite a few!) after the rescue dogs comment, that we are "bitter and hateful" as well as "extremely judgemental and often cruel", did you mention jealous too? Ooh yes I see you did. Why on earth would anyone take offence that that? It would be soooo unreasonable.

But I would be quite interested in the answer to three questions:

a) exactly what threads are you talking about where we all displayed these characteristics? Really I'd like to know where these bitter judgmental and frankly rather nasty threads are, because out of the hundreds and hundreds of threads there are on adoption on MN I see the occasional one venting about damage to our children which if you read them are just angry railings against the injustices our children can suffer from, because we don't like to see our children suffer - really much like birth parents vent from time to time.

b) one of your fathers isn't called Ian Joseph is he? Or Melvin or John. Just wondering.

c) Have you read my second post after starting the thread? Just to save you the bother of scrolling up 'cos I am really vair naice when I am not being a judgmental, bitter, cruel and hateful adopter and if you're not going to be fluffy and supportive then bugger off this isn;t the thread for you.

Oh and just so's you know for future reference it's generally good form to start a post "with the greatest possible respect" when you are about to put the boot in so people know what mud they're about to wade into.

HTH

Just thought I'd add my opinion too. xxx

[Lilka]

Well, Kew, you said what I thinking! But I went for the gentler comment, without saying that I found that post offensive. But I did.

I am genuinely curious as to which threads on here are being referred to. I just cannot think of any hateful or bitter threads on here. So 22honey could you give me a concrete example of a thread which has upset you? Because I'd rather not be confused and go judge for myself.

it's going to be one of mine now isn't it?

[Choccyjules]

Wow. I have never seen any APs on here being nasty about BPs. This is the most balanced and caring Adoption Forum I've yet found.

[Angelwings11]

kewcumber brilliant!

[22honey]

I am very sorry if I offended anyone, that really wasnt what I was trying to do! I also wasnt referring to any particular poster on this thread, and yes I also agree its one of the most balanced forums when it comes to adoption. There is another site I have read where pretty much all AP on there slate the BF, even without much reason. My thoughts for the post were coming a lot from what I'd read on there. The comments I wrote were merely an observation of all talk from AP I have read on forums.

There is also plenty of adopters on here especially that are very nice and forgiving about their child's birth family, and appear to award them the respect many of them deserve for providing them with their lovely children.

I understand completely why an AP with a child damaged due to parent abuse would feel angry and need to vent. I read these forums because I've always thought of adopting myself eventually, know some people who have had their children taken from them and also because I was adopted (although in a different way and only by a father not a mother and yes I know its not the same) myself. And I love my adopted dad exactly the same if not more than my bio dad. He brought me up from a child and I will always have that soft spot for him and childhood memories I will never have with my bio dad. I know the love for an adopted child isn't any different and I would never refer to adoption as 'stealing' children as some people do!

I went into care for 3 months as a teenager as I was a nightmare (long story but it taught me I wanted to be good for my mother!) and in one home the FF took me to the pub, told me all about how he cheated on FM regularly (these people had some young girls tiny baby that was due to be adopted!) and offered to have sex with me. He also touched me up and tried to get me into his bedroom. I never told SS as they wouldn't have believed me (so I thought), I was a wayward teen and he was a respectable foster father with a nice house, wife and his own 2 children. I ran away from the home soon after and moved to a new one before going being moved home. I often see posts on adoption forums recommending SS intervention and FC at all costs if theres a problem at the bio home (yes, this situation is different the foster care was voluntary) and no one mentions the rate of sexual abuse is higher for children in FC.

I guess some of it might be down to knowing a girl who had 3 children in a short space of time, the father was a drug dealer who had been involved in the sexual exploitation of teenage girls (she didnt live with him, she split with him when it was found out what he was doing and didnt let him have access but still lost all 3 of her babies eventually being allowed to parent just one of them) and she had an alcoholic mother and lost her children even though she much loved and wanted them and did everything she could to make a good home for them, which is why she was allowed to keep her oldest baby. But she still lost 2 of her babies and has gone through a lot of pain because of this. I would hate to see her two boys AP slating her for any problems because she is and was a competent mother SS just thought 3 was too many for her and never gave her a chance to parent her two youngest children. She wasnt abusive and put her children first.

I wasnt aware you had to be fluffy and supportive in order to post on the thread, sorry. I am genuinely sorry for upsetting anyone and most posters on here are very level headed and considerate when it comes to the BP. I know that you obviously want what is best for your child and that you have taken on a challenging job to give a child a good life.

I do still think from what I've read and seen that some adoptive parents are in denial about the reality of adopting, and that I have seen excessively bitter and jealous sounding posts on Adoption forums before (I am not referring to this one by the way, I havnt read much on this adoption forum for a while but I don't post on the other site) and also lots of posts I have found odd and disingenuous have been ones from people thinking of becoming adoptive parents usually because they can't have a bio child. There are lots of people that want a child no matter what and consider adoption whilst thinking and naively telling themselves it would be pretty much the same as having a bio child. And yes I do think anyone considering adoption should be open to the likelihood such a child will be damaged and have behaviour and attachment issues. If a potential adoptive parent cannot handle such a scenario I believe they shouldn't adopt. Even a baby has attachment to their mother. The breaking of this bond damages children and its something that pretty much every adoptive child is likely to have.

Again sorry if I offended, it wasnt meant and I will not post on this thread again if its merely for support and being fluffy. X

[22honey]

and no none of my fathers are called such a thing, what a weird question!

[Lilka]

I'm sorry you went through those experiences in care

This particular thread was started as a fluffy support thread because we were being battered by a load of threads full of "nearly all children up for adoption are stolen by social services and adoptive parents should all give their children back" people.

There is also plenty of adopters on here especially that are very nice and forgiving about their child's birth family, and appear to award them the respect many of them deserve for providing them with their lovely children

Okay, I want to talk about this.

Firstly, do we have to forgive? Aren't there some things which can't be forgiven? There's a difference between feeling some level of empathy and compassion, and between being forgiving, at least in my mind (obviously people define forgiveness in different ways). I can't "forgive" my childrens birth parents for what they did - not least because it's not my place to do that, it's my children's.

Every situation is different, but there are situations where acting nicely would be someting only a very few would manage. When you read a forum post, the thing is you don't know what the true situation is. You might make a guess or assumptions, but the reality is people don't often post a huge amount of their childs background, for very obvious reasons. So that person you are judging as not very nice, might not be saying that their child was sexually abused by their birth parents, or any number of other things.

But it's the second part of the sentence that I find quite puzzling. If my children had been relinquished by their birth parents because their birth parents felt that they weren't able to parent and they wanted a different life for their chldren, then I am sure I would have a lot of respect for that decision and gratitude because their decision resulted in my having my children

But what you've posted, is not my reality and not a lot of families reality.

My children's birth parents did not provide me with them. They had no say in the matter at all. Saying that they provided me with children would, to me, be implying that their birth mothers are reproductive vessels whose job it is to provide me with children. Which...just no. They aren't,

I respect people's actions and choices. Like a choice to relinquish a child, I can respect that

But - my childrens birth mothers became pregnant, had children, and then had them taken away by social services and the courts, who placed them for adoption without consent.

So - are you asking me to respect their ability to have children? Like - "wow, your ovaries and womb are really healthy and work perfectly, but mine aren't, mine are old and menopausal. Respect" (note - I didn't come to adoption through infertility, adoption was the obvious choice for me as a single lesbian at that time. But still, my ovaries are now old and menopausal)

Respect the abuse and neglect that lead to the children being removed?

It doesn't make sense.

I CAN feel enormous sadness for the birth mum's situation and find a lot of empathy and compassion (depending on the situation obviously!), and if the birth mother has made decisions that were brave or good for the children, I can respect those. But I can't respect the ability to have children because it's not a decision. I certainly can't respect neglectful or abusive actions, even when I can understand some of the reasons why it happened in the first place.

Hope that makes sense

[holycowwhatnow]

Lilka, you are so eloquent and say things just as they should be said.

[Angelwings11]

22Honey I do sympathise with what you have experienced, but as I said previously I was offended by what you said. My DH and I certainly went into adoption with our eyes wide open. However, parenting a child that has suffered early life trauma can be difficult, as they have other emotionally needs to consider.

I am not sure what forums you have read but quite frankly what is the issue if AP have written anything negative? When 'we' are dealing with the aftermath of neglect, abuse etc inflicted on our children sometimes there is a need to vent with people who understand. Yes we can be angry but we are also empathic! I have seen forums where BP are writing negative things about SS, AP etc....I have never seen an AP post a comment that was in any way in the same tone as your first post.

[Italiangreyhound]

22honey I am very sorry to hear of your horrible experiences in foster care.

I think this particular thread is meant to be a rather 'fluffy' one as lots of people felt rather battered by media attention on adoption and birth parents thanks to a couple of TV documentaries. I am not yet an adoptive parent but I felt quite 'hounded' just by reading the social media stuff after watching the programmes. I felt almost like I needed to 'defend' adoption after watching one and 'defend' adopters after watching the other.

I think adoptive parents, like a lot of parents, probably need a lot of different things from these forums: the chance to support each other and get support, the chance to ask questions and get advice, the chance to vent when life gets a bit much, etc etc.

One thing that Lilka, Kew, Devora and co have really taught me (sorry to name names, actually loads of people have taught me loads of stuff but these three have taught me specifically about this 'topic') is the importance of birth parents in children's lives.

Birth parents in relation to 'good' stuff (maybe like identity) and the 'bad' stuff (maybe like experiences) and the need to understand.

More than anything else the need to get inside the mind and life of the child and see things from their perspective! As a parent I do try and do that already but to be honest these women have shown me how important this really is especially for children who join a family by adoption.

Things like corresponding with the birth parents and meeting the birth parents etc, are things I would probably have never willing wanted to do! But reading posts here has made me see that these are things that will ultimately help the child we adopt. And the posts from birth parents on this site have also helped to make me more compassionate, and to see the 'needs' of birth families. These needs will never have more importance for me than the needs of the child (which must be paramount) but there are other people in what is sometimes called the adoption triangle - child and both (sets of) parents. (No offence to single birth parents or single adopter parents! just trying to cover all bases!). And everyone has importance in some way.

So in short there are a whole bunch of people who have taught me a whole bunch of things, and you 22honey are one of them because you have shared a bit of your story here. Thank you.

I personally was not offended by your post, but then I am not yet an adoptive parent! I knew as I read your post that others would be offended. This subject is one which is hugely personal. Hopefully as people explain why they were offended you will see that their replies in the light they are meant. I think learning from each other is very important.

I wish you all the very best if you do decide to adopt.

[holycowwhatnow]

And 22honey, for the record I'm offeneded by your post. And your 'apology' shows that you are really talking out of your arse.
I do still think from what I've read and seen that some adoptive parents are in denial about the reality of adopting, and that I have seen excessively bitter and jealous sounding posts on Adoption forums before (I am not referring to this one by the way, I havnt read much on this adoption forum for a while but I don't post on the other site) and also lots of posts I have found odd and disingenuous have been ones from people thinking of becoming adoptive parents usually because they can't have a bio child. There are lots of people that want a child no matter what and consider adoption whilst thinking and naively telling themselves it would be pretty much the same as having a bio child. And yes I do think anyone considering adoption should be open to the likelihood such a child will be damaged and have behaviour and attachment issues. If a potential adoptive parent cannot handle such a scenario I believe they shouldn't adopt. Even a baby has attachment to their mother. The breaking of this bond damages children and its something that pretty much every adoptive child is likely to have.

I'm one of those people who wanted a child 'no matter what' and I couldn't have (another) bio child. However, I have a wide circle of adoptive parent friends and while we all may have been naive at the start of the process, there's no one among us who think it's the same as having a bio child. Who are these 'lots of people' you refer to? Do you know any of them? Or are you just talking out of your arse??

You may not have meant to be offensive, but offensive you have been in both your posts. You don't know what you're talking about and you're spouting off, preaching, your uninformed rubbish at people who do know extensively what's involved in adoption. Having been adopted by your stepdad is NOTHING like what our children go through.

I'm very cross.

[CloserThanYesterday]

22honey You seem to be subscribing to the hard done by image of birth parents currently being peddled by the daily mail etc ...

Your experiences sound awful, and I'm sorry for you, but you must realise that some situations will mean that adopters need an understanding place to discuss the awful things their children are dealing with. I've never seen any posts which sound bitter or jealous ... but even if they did, maybe they just needed a heat of the moment rant as we all do sometimes. Who are you to judge without knowing any background?

I am just starting the adoption process, and adopters on this forum are giving me an unbiased, supportive view of the adoption process and beyond. Thank you all!