I want my baby back - Panorama

[Hels20]

I hesitate to put this on the board but would be interested in the views of anyone who watches this - it's tonight on BBC 1 at 9pm.

I hope it gives a balanced account. Then there is the Channel 4 programme on Wednesday T 10pm on Finding a Mum and Dad.

It all seems so incredible, that anything like that could happen - i just could not imagine it happening to us, but it clearly could and does happen :( Those poor people and the poor poor children. Taken away from loving parents for no reason - its sickening.

wizardpc

I hope it is not that rapists' forum where some legal firms were helping for free a bunch of child molesters and rapists to get away with that, shouting from tree tops that false allegations are rife and that psychological abuse doesn't exist. If you are one of them, tell us so...I can report you, thanks

wizard is I think male. Claims to be a webdesigner who refers parents who have had children stolen by social servies for free legal advice because he's on a forum elsewhere.

He says that there have been thousands of mistaken forced adoptions (although he did subsequently clarify that he meant that he thinks there might have been thousands over a 24 year period.

He believes that there shouldn't be any adoptions without birth parent consent except in "a few cases"

He beleives that we should quantify the compensation due to those miscarriages of justice - I think his suggestion was £10million.

And he lives in Essex.

He can corretc me if I got any of that wrong, I really can;t reread all his commetns or I'll lose the will to live.

LEMmingaround

Sorry but I don't buy it. I have seen the system at its worse and I can tell you that before laying any allegation, of any kind, against someone they need a whole mountain of evidence.

And in some cases, people who go on TV.. are not innocent just because they go public.....just saying.

Im not a girl!!

Some people strangely actually dont seek advice quickly enough - they also sometimes dont know where to turn. Those who have good intellect and an education are mostly often fine. Jacque Courtnage wasn't though.

I dont think it's a huge surprise that most kids taken into care are from not so good backgrounds and not so well educated parents.

Needless to say Im not so mysterious in certain places.

I didn't watch the programme - were the cases where the parents claimed the child had rickets/vitmin D deficiency to such a great degree that it caused bone fractures ever actually proved. Was there an agreement that this was the cause?

Not really relevant but I'd be interested.

@cuccumber I think you've deliberately taken some of that out of context. But quite good nonetheless.

I shall move on. The fact remains that the tide is slowly turning re forced adoptions. The work done online is beginning to work. There will be more too on TV and Radio.

For what it's worth, I'll tell you my interest and why it affects me. My ex suffered from mental health issues - quite severely - genetic and post natal. It was quite bad and could have been a lot worse but for an understanding doctor - there were issues and events that could have gone wrong. It probably never would have got really desperate but, it can, and does, happen occasionally to the wrong people in those situations.

I have four healthy young adults and one who will (almost certainly) go to Oxbridge.

Being lucky or unlucky sometimes depends on the roll of the dice!!

I'm not a girl either wizard. Doubt any of us would describe ourselves that way

But I do agree that if you are poorly educated you run the biggest risk of not having the wherewithal to fight any claims. Unfortunately this also makes you much more vulnerable to poor advice which can result in yoru child being removed permanently. ALl the more need to refer people to people who can give really sound advice which I hope is what you do.

Yes, think so Kew. The mother of that child is posting on one of the threads I think (though didn't see it either, am not in the UK, and am getting a bit confused with the different threads)

I would not want to be a social worker for all the tea in china and all the wine in france - i could not cope with that level of responsibility, to be fair, i don't know how they can do that job - they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. I genuinely had nightmares last night, after that program but do recognised that it was very biased. What i can't understand is that if vit D deficiency lead to these fractures, why that wasn't taken into account? As in, was it taken into account but we didn't get shown that? and there were other reasons for them taking those children?

@kewcumber I didn't watch the programme - were the cases where the parents claimed the child had rickets/vitmin D deficiency to such a great degree that it caused bone fractures ever actually proved. Was there an agreement that this was the cause?

Not really relevant but I'd be interested.

one of the cases was proven - they didnt or werent able to test at the time in the others so one will never know.

Happy for you to add as much context as you like wizard. I have no interest in misrepresenting you. I too have no personal axe to grind and have supported people on both sides of the debate.

oh well, if you get a child to university then you must be great then

Wizard, you are barking!

you can only prove the vitamin D deficiency if it's tested at the time I believe - the lady who got her child back only got the child back because it continued to be unwell until treated.

Its a minefield not properly understood for sure. Plus it was clear the radiologist was wrong and probably used in more than one case - as it was just his/her opinion - proven to be wrong.

This is my contention then. Surely the first thing that would be done in a case with multiple/unexplained fractures would be a test for Vit D deficiency. In fact, surely a full blood profile would be run - its hardly rocket science - which makes me suspect that it isn't quite so simple.

it's a change they want to be made I believe - that was quite clear last night.

There are also equal contentions between fissures and fractures

I have had severe vitamin D deficiency and it took some time and intervention to resolve so I'm interested that it improved enough that it couldn't be tested even some time later.

I'm interested because I have a similar problem and a year of sunshine certainly wouldn't have solved my case. And mine wasn't even bad enough to cause bone density problems which I would assume is a much more entrenched problem. I can;t imagine how bad such a deficiency would have to be in order to cause fragile bones - what did the medical experts on teh programme have to say about it.

I'd be interested in an unbiased medical opinion on how long such a problem would take to resolve naturally without medical intervention and Vit D deficiency is exceptionally rarely soled by improved diet alone. It could provide a useful tool in future to be added to the tests doctors do on children when bones have been broken regardless of any child protection issues as non-one wants their childs ones breaking unnecessarily

I don't think there was any 'proof' in the program, apart from the one case where it was proven the child had a genetic disorder.

That doesn't mean that the other families weren't telling the truth, but equally we have no proof that they were.

It's one of the big difficulties of media publication like this. The topic is one needing discussing and for sure some families go through this nightmare but for many of the personal examples, we actually have no proof and don't know what the truth is

my vitamin D deficiency took many months of injections to improve. It isn't something that improves overnight.

LEM, I think the problem was some doctors were dogmatic about 'x-rays clearly demonstrate no Vit D deficiency' even though real experts in this area (ie not just any jobbing paediatrician) said it isn't actually sufficient.

Just like the arrogant doc who claimed 'breastfed white babies don't get rickets'. Surely a judge should be able to spot that's bollocks!

There were paeds talking on twitter last night saying that they knew no one who wouldn't run all these tests immediately when dealing with fractures

Sorry yes I wasn;t trying to imply the families weren;t telling the truth - I have no idea. I was just wondering why everyone was so convinced it was true - what the proof was.

So in one case it was proved but in the other two, it has been claimed there is another possible explanation but there is no proof ether way.

Hopefully more parents of children with unexplained breaks will have their VitD tested.

the point is the experts who damned those other families were demonstrably making untrue/exaggerated statements, e.g. 'white breastfed babies don't get rickets' or 'X-ray didn't show rickets so it can't possibly have existed'.

It's the person making an accusation - the doctors, in these cases - who should provide evidence for their assertions. And be able to stand up to questioning. You can't demand the parents prove a negative - that's not what courts are supposed to do.