PhD viva: Revise/resubmit and new viva.

[Nicoladb]

I had my viva yesterday and it was the worst afternoon of my life. After a gruelling 90 minutes, the examiners withdraw to discuss.

The lead up to the viva has been chaotic. My supervisors and I identified an external examiner based overseas in May, and an internal examiner from my institution. On the day of my submission in August I was told that the external examiner has never examined a PhD before and thus a further examiner be appointed in addition. I expressed my nervousness with three examiners. We managed to identify a third, that day, who is a very distinguished person in this field.

With one examiner based overseas, lining up a time and date took a while. One was eventually identified. However, I saw that they had switched out my internal examiner without telling me. I queried this, then 10 minutes later got an email informing me the internal was unwell and we would need to postpone. Urgh.

Eventually a new date was found and the viva held yesterday. I’d already had a mock, in October, which went well.

My supervisors seemed confident in me. My secondary supervisor said he’d be gobsmacked if I got anything beyond minors, and my primary said some level of corrections likely.

However, yesterday, the examiners really took issue with the structure of my work, including my methodology and the fact I included the theoretical framework in the methodology.

The internal examiner seemed very preoccupied by this. Then the external mentioned “when you are revising…” The other two examiners interrupted her and the chair stepped in to say this wasn’t the part of the exam where recommendations were given. I texted my supervisor who was listening in off camera to ask whether this was a resubmit and they said no, rather they were likely talking about when I revise the thesis and turn it into a manuscript for publication. I also asked the chair and they said no decisions had been made pre-viva.

When I was called into the room and given the news, I was horrified. As was my supervisor. The rest is a blur, though I did ask why revise rather than major. The internal examiner said it gives me the best chance of passing as with major, the corrections go to him only, and he can fail them. They’ve also asked me for another viva.

I feel devastated, humiliated, ashamed, sick. I didn’t sleep last night and the sense of loss is catastrophic. I’ve done this work part-time in addition to a demanding job - this has been my life for the past 6+ years.

I wrote to my secondary supervisor and course director, who are both surprised. My options seem to be revise and have another viva, look into withdrawing with MPhil, withdraw altogether, or approach a new institution.

I’m too raw and hurt to make a proper decision, but would appreciate any advice or shared experiences as I get through this devastating period.

No advice from me just just wanted to send a hug. That sounds so badly handled on their part. It’s not a reflection on you.

Ah, this is really tough for you. You're in shock so be kind on yourself. At some point soon you'll receive the examiners' report and will then have a good sense of what you need to do to resubmit your thesis. It isn't uncommon to have to resubmit and have another viva.
It doesn't sound as if there are any procedural errors, just that you are surprised by the outcome (and of course so are your supervisors, as they are rather biased).
You are so close to getting your PhD, you'd be mad to do anything other than make your resubmission. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Of the last few PhDs I examined, two were resubmissions with reviva and both passed on second viva with minor corrections.
You CAN do this 💪

Poor you! That sounds really upsetting and disappointing. I am a pretty experienced PhD examiner and I just want to say that there is nothing to feel ashamed about. You haven't done anything wrong. Yes, the viva didn't go according to plan and of course that is a horrible shock and surprise. But these things do happen - as a supervisor, the best student I ever had ended up with major corrections, which was a horrible surprise and I think the wrong decision.

The silver lining is that the examiners are giving you a chance to resubmit and be re-examined - this means they think you have every chance of passing next time if you complete the revisions. They should give you a very detailed list of what you need to do in order to pass - if you can work your way through that, the next viva should be straightforward. And then it will be like this has all been a bad dream. It never needs to come up again and certainly won't be part of your academic record - nobody ever asks if a thesis passed first time round.

I'd suggest arranging a meeting with your supervisors asap to talk this through. Hopefully the examiners will send you a detailed list of what you need to do very soon. On the face of what you've written here, I'd suggest taking some time over Christmas to lick your wounds and get over the awful shock of it all, and then getting back on the horse in January and doing the resubmission. I don't think there is anything to be gained from going for the MPhil after all the work you've put in, and approaching another institution is likely to be messy and incur costs.

Take care and give yourself time to recover from this horrible experience - then onwards and upwards.

X-post with @fivepies who has said what I wanted to say but with less pomposity - totally agree!

i'm sorry, it must be a big shock.

As others have said, this decision is meant to give you space to pass. I had a student recently get Major corrections, and the internal pointed out (afterwards, privately) that this decision was chosen because (a) it gave the student more time to make changes and (b) it gave the examiners the option to ask for a second set of minor revisions if the next submission was nearly there but not quite.

The student made the revisions that were asked for, the examiners read them & did not call for a further viva. they said he had done a great job with a much improved thesis and he passed.

so it can happen like that. Especially if the issues the examiners had were with one early part of the thesis that might need re-framing, then revisiting that chunk might fix everything. Keep going and good luck with it.

Thanks for you kind words and advice. It’s helpful to hear from experienced academics.

@PacificallyRequested Not sure this was necessary. You know nothing of my background (which has definitely not been charmed).

💐🍷OP. DH has been there - now a senior academic in his field. He's considered to be an excellent PhD supervisor - he learned a lot from the experience.

Revise and resubmit. Don't think of junking it.

My viva was fine. My finals though - that's tale of disaster, my God. DH sailed through his though.

My point is that somewhere in an academic career something goes pear-shaped at some stage. It's miserable at the time but you will get though it. Be kind to yourself.

Gosh, I think that's a bit unkind. The PhD viva is such a daunting process and obviously OP has invested a great deal of time and effort to get to this point, so is of course very understandably devastated.

PacificallyRequested - leave her be.

Poor you. <sends an unMumsnetty hug>

I think I'd thank them for their time, then I'd try (although I know it's difficult) to leave it until January. I think you might as well read their comments before you decide anything.

I would think re-submitting is probably the best thing though. Your supervisor is presumably experienced and thinks your work is worthy of a PhD, so I wouldn't go for the MPhil instead.

Do you have to have the same examiners next time?

No advice as I've nearly a year to go, but sending (((unmumsnetty hugs)))

Nicoladb - I remember going to meet DH (then DP) after his viva. I got to the postgraduate room and the other PhD students had gathered around him like a herd of elephants near an injured elephant 🐘. He described the viva as being like the scene in Reservoir Dogs with the cop tied to the chair. (I don't think it was quite that bad 😁)

Really sorry to hear that @Nicoladb , a shock indeed. Oddly enough I was an external yesterday for a PhD bubt definitely not yours. I agree with the others, as disheartened (understandably) as you feel right now, this is solvable. Keep hanging in there and wait for the report. This is indeed a sign that the examiners have confidence in you for the revised thesis and viva.

I totally understand that this is a big shock and disappointment right now though, that's not to detract from that part.

Op I'm so sorry things didn't go the way you expect. You've obviously worked very hard. Don't be put off. Give yourself a few days, dust yourself down, make a plan and crack on.

I do have huge sympathy as I found my viva stressful. Quite a few of my peers came out crying from there's. Good luck 💐

This happened to a friend. With her - it was a really poor choice of external.

It was awful. She very nearly cracked. And then after about a month of feeling sorry for herself she got cracking. She said ‘fuck it’, revised, re did the viva and passed. I think she did it way quicker than the 18 mths too.

From there, she sailed into a prestigious post doc, and was the first of us to get a perm lectureship.

I passed with NO corrections. I never got a post doc and went from crappy audjunct position to crappy adjunct position. Did a pgce, returned to academia…. And after more than 10 yrs finally finally have a lectureship.

Moral of the story. It’s crap. Don’t let the bastards get you down. It has very little bearing actually on future academic career.

That's not very kind. I think we all know there could be worse things. Doing a PhD is just the most arduous, intense and thankless thing to do.younhave to throw your absolute everything into it and dig so, so deep. At viva time you are at the mercy of a person who may just take a different view on your research. I've seen it happen and it is absolutely crushing.
OP, follow the advice given above. Belive in yourself. Give yourself Christmas and do the corrections and further viva. Best of luck!

First of all @Nicoladb big hugs!

I had a very similar situation 2 years ago. A 6 hour viva where my 3 examiners shredded my thesis (also p/t whilst working) after it had been reviewed by supervisors etc.

I’m pretty sure I had some level of traumatic response - it was one of the worst experiences of my life.

first of all breathe, grieve and allow yourself time to heal. You can’t do anything until you get the examiners report.

then make a list of ALL the corrections. I essentially rewrote my entire thesis and reanalysed all my data sets - it was a real slog.

it still wasn’t perfect when I resubmitted and there were additional issues with supervisory support and viva scheduling (9 months after resubmission!)

my academic regs required me to pass with minor corrections and after a very different viva (same examiners) that is the recommendation that has been put forward by them.I’m still waiting on official communication from the central university committee, but hopefully it’s all ok.

its been a real marathon but my examiners were much more sympathetic the second time around.

I’d advise keeping a note and raising any procedural irregularities - it does sound as if your external had pre-decided. Speak to your supervisor about it if they’re supportive.

but mostly take some time to regain your equilibrium. I absolutely know how awful it feels, but you can do this!

My thread in case it helps
www.mumsnet.com/talk/academics_corner/4687233-phd-resubmit-re-viva-advice?page=1

Just to chip in my own sympathies too, and agree that you should consider resubmitting once you've recovered from your ordeal.

I have to say though that vivas should NOT be so brutal. The third academic in the room should have been acting as an independent chair to ensure the process was followed, rather than as an additional examiner. If they didn't, assuming that is what is laid out in your regulations, you should take advice about complaining. I don't think it'll change the outcome, but might change how they handle the resubmit (eg whether the same examiners should serve).

This points to the lack of formal training given to examiners in this country. New examiners can be the worst (though shouldn't be).

I rarely write here, but big hug from me first of all - very similar thing happened to me about 2-3 years ago. After a gruelling viva I was given a resubmission (no further viva expected) - no one in our dept got this in the last 5 years or more! It head to go all the way up to the dean to be verified… and student admin also copied me in (by accident) on a few internal emails discussing my unusual situation to embarrass me even more.

To say I was devastated is really not enough. Right before Christmas… I was so near to just leave it all behind. It is very raw for the first few weeks and months… you really have to be nice to yourself and get some distance. It’s also difficult for non-PhDers to understand it all I found.

Anyway, I eventually picked myself up after some months and started working through all the corrections one by one (have the examiners provided decent feedback?). Once I got going, it was hard, but at least I had something to aim for. Obviously, I was still worried I wasn’t going to pass in the end… anyway - submitted again after 16 months or so and after what felt like an endless wait I got a message that I passed and no further corrections were required.

I now work as an Associate Lecturer and have a senior role in industry and my children constantly call me The Doctor. So I wouldn’t call it a Happy End (too many scars en route!), but I got the result and no one asks about details on really.

Feel free to message if you want a chat as well x

I'm so sorry this happened, it sounds like a dog's dinner of a viva that wasn't in line with supervisors' predictions., perhaps having an inexperienced external, plus a different internal just made it all really complicated and a bit of a power struggle. I would certainly not be looking to seek a resubmission unless the work was of a low standard and needed redoing. One thing I would say is familiarise yourself with all the protocols, what your internal said about signing off major corrections would NOT be the case at my RG university, internals only sign off minor and major corrections are reviewed by the whole examining board. So, make sure what they are saying and what was done procedurally was correct in every way as it may be that it wasn't done correctly.

I was given a choice to have a resubmission or major corrections as at the time my university only allowed 6 months for major and so they were concerned about the timeframe given I had children/a job, but I chose major and did them within 3 months.

After that, I would not let this stop you from getting a PhD. I would absolutely do the corrections and redo the viva, they will be highly motivated to pass you next time around if you demonstrate you have met their requirements.

This shows how random the process is, I've sat in recently on a viva where the candidate barely spoke and was totally confused, and they got minor corrections, even though the work was good but not great. Just not consistent.

Don't let that stop you getting that PhD though.

Just echoing this!

my third examiner was entirely ineffective as a chair - resulting in a 6 hour viva that covered just 3 chapters of my thesis

however they were MUCH better second time around - I think the discrepancies from the regs had been noted

I was also more prepared to advocate for myself the second time around and asked if this focus of questioning was something we wanted to spend lots of time on when it was peripheral to my thesis (but a pet interest if one examiner)

That sounds really stressful. Defo don't give up! I can only imagine the despair, I genuinely cried after I got minor corrections because I was so sick of the thesis by that point.
My advice would be to take time off till at least after Xmas.
They will send you a list as to what they want. Make a plan with your supervisor on how to address these comments.

How many previous PhDs did your primary have btw?

You are not a failure, my friend who is one of the most intelligent person I have met got R&R as well. Its no reflection on you, this process is not fair by default.