PhD viva: Revise/resubmit and new viva.

[Nicoladb]

I had my viva yesterday and it was the worst afternoon of my life. After a gruelling 90 minutes, the examiners withdraw to discuss.

The lead up to the viva has been chaotic. My supervisors and I identified an external examiner based overseas in May, and an internal examiner from my institution. On the day of my submission in August I was told that the external examiner has never examined a PhD before and thus a further examiner be appointed in addition. I expressed my nervousness with three examiners. We managed to identify a third, that day, who is a very distinguished person in this field.

With one examiner based overseas, lining up a time and date took a while. One was eventually identified. However, I saw that they had switched out my internal examiner without telling me. I queried this, then 10 minutes later got an email informing me the internal was unwell and we would need to postpone. Urgh.

Eventually a new date was found and the viva held yesterday. I’d already had a mock, in October, which went well.

My supervisors seemed confident in me. My secondary supervisor said he’d be gobsmacked if I got anything beyond minors, and my primary said some level of corrections likely.

However, yesterday, the examiners really took issue with the structure of my work, including my methodology and the fact I included the theoretical framework in the methodology.

The internal examiner seemed very preoccupied by this. Then the external mentioned “when you are revising…” The other two examiners interrupted her and the chair stepped in to say this wasn’t the part of the exam where recommendations were given. I texted my supervisor who was listening in off camera to ask whether this was a resubmit and they said no, rather they were likely talking about when I revise the thesis and turn it into a manuscript for publication. I also asked the chair and they said no decisions had been made pre-viva.

When I was called into the room and given the news, I was horrified. As was my supervisor. The rest is a blur, though I did ask why revise rather than major. The internal examiner said it gives me the best chance of passing as with major, the corrections go to him only, and he can fail them. They’ve also asked me for another viva.

I feel devastated, humiliated, ashamed, sick. I didn’t sleep last night and the sense of loss is catastrophic. I’ve done this work part-time in addition to a demanding job - this has been my life for the past 6+ years.

I wrote to my secondary supervisor and course director, who are both surprised. My options seem to be revise and have another viva, look into withdrawing with MPhil, withdraw altogether, or approach a new institution.

I’m too raw and hurt to make a proper decision, but would appreciate any advice or shared experiences as I get through this devastating period.

Thanks so much for your kind words and advice.

I’m still feeling absolutely awful, though the searing physical pain I was feeling has subsided. It felt, and feels, like awful grief and that someone has died. My husband has been doing a great job of keeping me distracted and taking me out and about with friends - though I did nearly break down in Ikea yesterday.

I had a good chat with my course director (who is independent from my supervisory
team) on Friday. I’ve also asked for the withdrawal forms and put in a subject access request for the viva exam.

I’ve been increasingly erring towards withdrawal. The thought of reading the report and the possibility one of my supervisors may gently encourage me towards withdrawal (I’m not convinced my primary has ever had any faith in me, tbh) is not pleasant. I’d rather withdraw on my own terms. I also have lost all faith in my supervisors - how on earth did I get past the three or so review points, and a final panel to determine I was fit to take the viva, and the mock? The apparently fundamental errors in my work have not been noted by anyone else in my team or familiar with my work. The secondary has been super nice and we’ve messaged over the weekend - he said he’ll support whatever I decide though encourages not to withdraw until we’ve seen the report.

I feel like I’ve let them down. My primary supervisor is among the world’s best in the field, and the external examiner (experienced one) is another of the world’s leading voices. In such a small field, I worry I’ve undermined his reputation and that he’s probably massively angry with me.

I also have a ‘big job’ - a senior role in a
company (a different industry unrelated to my study) which requires a lot of time and energy. Can I afford to continue splitting my
efforts between the two? I don’t know.

Don't withdraw! At least not yet, it's a big decision and now isn't the best time to make it, things are still too raw.

Wait until you see what's in the report and can look at it rationally

I had a similar experience to you. I had to re-submit and complete a second viva.

Mine was a huge shock as my whole methodology was questioned. This methodology had been totally agreed by my two supervisors each of whom were top of their field from two top universities. The most reassuring thing that made me try again was my supervisors support - they were equally horrified by the viva.I was told that some examiners just seem to be vindictive. I think that my original slightly younger examiner felt it was an opportunity to challenge my much more senior supervisor. I think it there was some politics involved. I had never seen my supervisor so angry!

I did a complete re-write, not modifying my methodology but perhaps explaining it more fully. My supervisor then arranged a different examiner and my second viva was so much better and I sailed through.

It really hurts when someone tears apart so many years of hard work. Wait for the full report, talk to your supervisors and find a way forward. If they have faith in you then you should keep going. For me it was all worth it in the end and I am glad I didn't give up and accept the MPhil.

I also think don't withdraw right now. Really the fault is not with you it's with the viva. Are you absolutely sure the internal knows the protocol and has followed it? As I say, at my uni what they said would not be correct and so what you need to do could have been reissued as major corrections. I think you are still caught up in emotions, your primary should be feeling bad for not being a better supervisor, not you feeling bad for not being the perfect student (given they allowed submission and the viva to happen).

I also wonder if you can have another examiner?

Another one saying don't withdraw. Can totally see what you are saying but once you do, you can't undo it. Just hang fire and wait for the report. I really am so sorry, I really do understand that this must be such a shock.

Don't withdraw in a hurry. Hang in there. Do nothing for a bit and then talk to all your academic advisors about next steps

Of course don’t withdraw. Come on. 6 years.
I know you’re broken. Take a rest and get back to it. Be systematic with the notes they give. Make a spreadsheet, note their every single suggestion and and in your response note your correction. Just get it done and leave it behind.

F**cking PhDs… the sap the very soul at the end stages. Keep going.

Ugh PhDs are the literal worst. Big hug OP. I often think they’re more of an emotional challenge than an intellectual one.
If it helps, the one piece of advice or reframe that has helped me in academia (it was relating to papers rather than a thesis but the same applies) is ‘if they haven’t actually rejected it, you’re still winning’. I’m sure you’ll have been through the process of submitting a paper and having to do endless rounds of revision and having to hang in there until it’s eventually accepted. This is kind of the same thing.

This post has made me re-activate my account and actually post to Mumsnet for the first time ever!

I experienced something similar three years ago, and it's really hard for those who haven't been through the process to understand is (I certainly learned a lot). Mine happened at this time of year too, and (I won't lie) Christmas with the family was a huge effort. All I wanted to do was curl up in a ball and cry. I got the corrections through in January and had several weeks of being really angry as it was clear that some of what was fed back came from my examiners not having actually read huge chunks of my thesis. I wrote several cathartic letters that I never intended to send and by the end of January was in a much better place. I could think properly after that and could see where my communication could have been improved, both in the thesis and my viva.

I tackled every correction in full exactly as asked, although did politely push back where it was plainly wrong (as you would in a journal response). It was not an easy experience and I had to take a break completely some weeks. I was sure they would push back on the re-submission for lots of things (not least where I'd pulled them up for comments like "you should have referenced Xxx" when all the results of that chapter were specifically discussed in relation to Xxx), but my internal came back really quickly and passed it (I hadn't had another viva, but actually wish I had been asked to so I could feel that I'd really "passed" as the first experience felt like a car crash in slow motion - my viva was also utterly brutal).

Sorry for the long post, but what I came on to say is, allow yourself a break and then push on through - it really is worth it. You have done an incredible job to get so far - you will make it!

Sorry, no advice here, OP, as I was given minors. It's such a slog though, and in my case I waited 8 months from submission to viva due to the external examiner's availability. In the viva, he was a total prick, and one of my corrections was that I hadn't included his publications in my bibliography. Probably because I didn't read them.... and still haven't nearly ten years later! What I really wanted to tell you is that after this next push, it will be worth it. You've done the hard work already, this is just another step in the process and you've been unlucky with your viva. When you have that PhD, nobody can take it away. You can totally do this. Good luck x

Yes as PPs have said, it's there to help you deliver as good a thesis as is possible for you.

Take your time. Don't second guess the examiners' report - wait till it comes.

And then - another bit of advice which is really important: don't attempt to reconceptualise or re-do 4-5 years of research in 1 year. Do just what the examiners ask you to do. No more! Hold your nerve about your work.

Much sympathy here - this happened both to my husband and later to me. It was awful and what made it worse is that we felt completely isolated, that this never happened to anyone else. But clearly it does. This thread has been helpful to me too.
I think some examiners come with unacknowledged agendas.
Since then I have seen unfair treatment at the same time of a brilliant student and a less good one, with the first being held to a much higher standard, major revisions and the other apparently going through on the nod.
Whatever you chose to do, I hope you can reclaim pride in your work. It takes time.

Thanks all for your messages and advice.

It's now over a month since I failed my viva. Although the gut wrenching feelings of devastation and loss have faded, I'm feeling incredibly low and continue to feel like a big failure - like a continuous dull ache. It's impacting on other areas of my life, too. I feel like a fraud, an imposter and the biggest, stupidest idiot. New Years Day was extremely hard.

I'm still awaiting the chair's report and the preliminary reports. I've not met my supervisors yet (they've said tney'd prefer to wait until the report comes through). I'm dreading seeing the report, yet at the same time know I need to read it to make a proper decision about what to do (withdrawal or not).

I know that it takes time. I just keep thinking of the amount of time invested in this bl**dy work - 6/7 years. Urgh.

I'm still erring towards complete withdrawal. I've requested the form several times from university, though they haven't been forthcoming. I've found it online and am seriously considering filling it in.

I think in many ways I'm grieving. Initially I was in the depressed phase - not sleeping or eating or able to focus. I seem to have moved into anger, and find myself angry with everyone - my supervisors, the examiners, the institution, myself.

Hang in there OP. You really aren’t alone - and not a fraud or any of the other bad things. You won’t be the first or the last, and it’s fair to grieve for this bit. But it’s not over until you say it is. Take the anger and their report and make it work for you. Good luck.

I've replied before using a different username - my husband had to make major revisions after his viva.

I'm so sorry to read that you're still experiencing stress and anguish after your viva - it was a very stressful event, as I remember well from my husband's experience.

@Nicoladb you have not failed your viva - if you'd failed you wouldn't be able to make corrections.

Is this episode triggering other underlying feelings that have come to the fore due to the viva? I ask this because you seem very distressed still and I wonder if a follow up with a counsellor might help. 💐

See what the viva reports say and how you feel then.

Withdrawing is one option but, to me, it seems such a shame when it is likely that you can make the recommended changes and get your PhD. Obviously I have not been through what you've been through with the viva and I understand that you may be heartily sick of everything connected to it. I hope I am not coming across as as unsympathetic as I really do not mean to be.

I wish you all the best and I send an unMumsnetty hug.

Please @Nicoladb don't fill in the form or make any decisions in the midst of anger/grief.

You CAN do this!

I’m still awaiting my examiners report too, and I know it will be lengthy despite officially being ‘minor’ corrections after my resubmission.

after my first viva I felt very much how you are feeling now. I don’t think I properly went through the examiners report for a month or so after - it was very triggering. You really aren’t alone.

but you CAN do this. Your work is essentially passable, you can make these corrections and fundamentally no one wants you to fail.

please wait for the report and take it from there. Do you genuinely think you could live with the ‘what if’ of not trying again or will it be a constant niggle?

I pushed through a different difficult set of PhD circumstances (repeated supervisory change - I had 6 or 7 supervisors by the end). I just wanted to say that the people who dropped out - even right at the very end - are fine. Totally fine. They have good jobs, happy families, great explanations for the time spent. Their non-PhDs are now a part of their narrative. Just because those of us commenting here didn't quit doesn't mean you shouldn't. It can be a positive decision as well as a negative one.

That having been said, you really are very close. What makes you feel stronger? "I did research in X for several years, but realised the academic life wasn't for me." Or "it was the worst thing I've ever done; but I did it."

@Nicoladb - if I was your supervisor or postgrad director I'd be horrified that you were feeling so low and unsupported and I would want to do anything I could to provide support and hope. It is worth pushing for a conversation with supervisor / PG director / anyone senior and supportive asap, even before the report comes in, and explaining that you are considering withdrawing altogether. The situation does not sound unsurmountable or hopeless from the outside - I have seen this scenario play out many times and it has always ended in a student graduating with a PhD - but it clearly feels it from within and I completely appreciate why that is. Please talk to someone - they will want to help.

It shocking that you've not received the report a month later. You should ask your Graduate Studies director what's going on.

I would say its completely expected. It was Christmas and unfortunately, this will be low on their list to do. And they just dont care about OP.

OP, I'm so sorry. I work in an academic support / teaching role in a university. I can't help with advice on your specific situation but I wanted to say that your feelings are completely understandable, not to make any rash decisions, especially not to withdraw! You have got this, you've put in the work and the time - this is a setback but can be overcome.

Please go back to your supervisor & let them know how you are feeling.

Keep posting here if it will help.

You will come through this.

Just wanted to wish you all the best OP. It's such an awful process: but you didn't fail your viva. You presented your research in a way that the examiners didn't appreciate - but that doesn't mean it was a failure, just that you have different approaches.
There's no right answer about what the best way forward for you is - it depends on how much it's going to take out of you to go back to the project, but I would just hang on to the fact that your supervisors think it's good research, it has been given corrections rather than referred/MPhil.
I'd echo those who have said give it some time - but also DO reach out to your supervisors, they will be able to help and give perspective. All the very best, it's so hard, but plenty of people have been in these situations - many more than you realise when you just see "PhD". Take heart xx

Thanks so much. Posting on here really does help and you all have helped me through a really dark period. I’m feeling much less raw and emotional (still have good days and bad days), but now I’m feeling really angry.

it’s been six weeks and no recommendation or report. The office sent me the withdrawal form last week following a push from my supervisor. I’ve asked for the report.

Also put in a subject access request for the preliminary reports and an FOI request for some information relating to outcomes following resubmission. The due dates for both have passed. I did get the viva recording through though.

I’m feeling so angry. The lack of support has been astonishing. This has been really devastating. Fortunately I’m older than some PhD students, have a job, have a therapist I see privately, have a family, etc. I can’t imagine how it would feel to be wanting an academic career and going through this. There feels a complete lack of pastoral care - I haven’t been signposted to university counselling or anywhere like that.

The amount of material this has triggered is incredible. Failure, imposter syndrome, not being smart enough. I’m feeling all of these things being triggered by this outcome.

I am so sorry @Nicoladb , you absolutely should have a report. Are you a union member? I am not a union fan (not UCU member) but if you are, might be worth asking them. Have you contacted the Student Union too? I would be doing this.

As someone that does examine PhDs this all sounds a little strange (lack of report) and you sound like you have no support at all. I wish you well, you can get through this, don't give up!