PhD viva: Revise/resubmit and new viva.

[Nicoladb]

I had my viva yesterday and it was the worst afternoon of my life. After a gruelling 90 minutes, the examiners withdraw to discuss.

The lead up to the viva has been chaotic. My supervisors and I identified an external examiner based overseas in May, and an internal examiner from my institution. On the day of my submission in August I was told that the external examiner has never examined a PhD before and thus a further examiner be appointed in addition. I expressed my nervousness with three examiners. We managed to identify a third, that day, who is a very distinguished person in this field.

With one examiner based overseas, lining up a time and date took a while. One was eventually identified. However, I saw that they had switched out my internal examiner without telling me. I queried this, then 10 minutes later got an email informing me the internal was unwell and we would need to postpone. Urgh.

Eventually a new date was found and the viva held yesterday. I’d already had a mock, in October, which went well.

My supervisors seemed confident in me. My secondary supervisor said he’d be gobsmacked if I got anything beyond minors, and my primary said some level of corrections likely.

However, yesterday, the examiners really took issue with the structure of my work, including my methodology and the fact I included the theoretical framework in the methodology.

The internal examiner seemed very preoccupied by this. Then the external mentioned “when you are revising…” The other two examiners interrupted her and the chair stepped in to say this wasn’t the part of the exam where recommendations were given. I texted my supervisor who was listening in off camera to ask whether this was a resubmit and they said no, rather they were likely talking about when I revise the thesis and turn it into a manuscript for publication. I also asked the chair and they said no decisions had been made pre-viva.

When I was called into the room and given the news, I was horrified. As was my supervisor. The rest is a blur, though I did ask why revise rather than major. The internal examiner said it gives me the best chance of passing as with major, the corrections go to him only, and he can fail them. They’ve also asked me for another viva.

I feel devastated, humiliated, ashamed, sick. I didn’t sleep last night and the sense of loss is catastrophic. I’ve done this work part-time in addition to a demanding job - this has been my life for the past 6+ years.

I wrote to my secondary supervisor and course director, who are both surprised. My options seem to be revise and have another viva, look into withdrawing with MPhil, withdraw altogether, or approach a new institution.

I’m too raw and hurt to make a proper decision, but would appreciate any advice or shared experiences as I get through this devastating period.

at my university, if the examiners don't send the report in within 3 days of the viva we get emails from the registry reminding us.

you should definitely get a full report and don't do anything else until you do.

i'm now angry on your behalf - that your supervisor is not supporting you and that your examiners are being both horrible and useless.

Does your department have a Graduate Tutor who provides oversight of PhD student progress? If so, email them. Or email the HoD and set out clearly what has happened and what information you need.

they should be helping you at every step of the way and checking in and making the process work for you.

at my university, if the examiners don't send the report in within 3 days of the viva we get emails from the registry reminding us.

Seconding this. The report should be received within a couple of days of the viva. You need to start a complaint, firstly with the HoD. This is appalling.

I just wanted to share my sympathy. The whole ordeal sounds awful and very badly handled, and I can't believe they haven't sent you the report yet (I wonder if they cannot agree on it). You have had a really crap experience. It sounds as though the decision to fail you/wanting you to revise was decided before your viva even began. Please don't think of yourself as a failure. You are clearly a highly capable, intelligent and articulate person. Nothing changes that whether you decide to resubmit or withdraw. I would try to detach a little if you can and consider as dispassionately as possible the pros and cons of each decision.

Thank you.

The recommendation and report came through today. I’ve cried a lot already.

As expected, 80-90 percent involves the intro, lit review and methodology - the setting up and foundations of the work.

Finally meeting my supervisors tomorrow.

I’d like to ask for a new supervisor to be added to my team and for the inexperienced examiner to be removed.

Should I be asking for anything else?

Do you have a "head of pastoral" or similar for the graduate school?

I'd be tempted to speak to them, maybe even ask if they'd sit in the debrief. Just so there's somebody "independent" there.

Or if you don't want that, I'd still definitely speak to them separately. I know ours knows a lot about how systems and processes should work and can support if things aren't working. Ours is definitely allowed to act as a backup if you're having trouble with your supervisor, so I'd have thought they could help with this sort of thing.

"Backup" is maybe the wrong word. But they can definitely come to meetings as a support, and can mediate.

Agree, with Polkadots. Or you could ask your department's Director of Graduate Studies? And assuming you go ahead and resubmit (which you absolutely should), ask for an examination advisor (someone senior, and who can act impartially) to chair the next viva.

Just wanted to say all the best tomorrow. We are here for you! xx

Yes, good luck! I hope it goes very well.

Also wishing you luck and agree about back up as this sounds so complex.

Wrote to the research degrees coordinator today to express how unsupported I feel. Apparently there is a new person in role and the former person has agreed to continue supporting me.

If my pastoral care isn’t even joined up, god knows what the rest looks like.

Thanks for all your kind wishes ahead of the meeting later.

Best of luck OP, I'm really hoping you get support and a pathway to completion. I've been so struck by your (entirely understandable) despair. 💐

OP this is good news! Intro, lit review and methodology you can rewrite easily! Well much easier than having to reanalyse all your data etc.

You can do this!

How did it go op? Rooting for you, you can do this.

I know this is an older thread, but I just thought I would add my support. This happened to me about 20 years ago. I can remember being devastated. We invest so much on our PhD studies, and when the time came for submission, I had just had my first child, I was trying to establish a career, and money was really tight. I was so utterly sick of the PhD that I could not even face looking at the thing for a week or two after being told to resubmit.

However, the guidance was quite clear, and I tackled it on a step by step basis, and resubmitted as required. It passed.

The experience has, I believe, made me much more compassionate than I would have been if I had sailed through first time.

Just wanted to sympathise, OP. My situation was not quite the same (ended up with minors) but I found the viva process really upsetting and hard to deal with, especially as my external repeatedly tried to grill me on aspects of the PhD outside his expertise to the point that my supervisor has to step in and say that the reason I couldn't answer his Q was because it didn't make any sense. It is hard to feel that years of work are being rubbished and you are at the mercy of people who don't know you and (in some cases) are simply thinking "I'd have done it a bit differently" and don't appreciate the impact of demanding that.

This might not be a popular view but I think the viva process is set up for students who have done a traditional route (eg undergrad, masters, PhD straight through), don't have dependents or other substantial work- I've definitely found that chatting to staff at my institution where they seem to see asking for majors/resubmission as no big deal and just a chance for a student to have another lovely year working on their thesis, and could only see the idea of someone stopping at that point as "losing interest". No appreciation at all of how hard this can be for people with other commitments (to be clear, I'm not calling for lower standards but for more support and understanding- I also think the viva whole process is laughably flawed and open to bias but that's another thread...)

The main thing I wanted to say is to let your feelings settle a bit before you make any big decisions. I moved from feeling really low and dejected (due to how my viva went and the behaviour of one examiner rather than my actual result) and never wanting to look at my thesis again, to feeling quite icily practical and determined about it- I emotionally detached form the work and just saw it as a set of tasks to be done.

Hello All,

I wanted to provide an update on how things are doing.

• I spoke with various internal stakeholders in the department and beyond. I was allocated with a 'specialist' in helping students manage corrections. Even he said my thesis should have passed. FFS. He's good, though he's started unpicking my research questions (which the mean internal liked?!).
• I've been totally ditched by my original supervisory team. New supervisor suggests meeting with him only (which I understand) to avoid a plurality of voices/influences and then going back to my team when we've made many changes. However, I've not even had a friendly check-in message from my team. I did write asking for some research sources on a particular issue and my primary sent me a pretty snarky email that was very unhelpful. Urgh. I feel like a problem child that has been moved around.
• Mental health-wise I'm alot better. The raw hurt has moved into anger. I've channelled this into a formal complaint and have a meeting with someone at the university next week. The basis of my complaint covers the viva coordination, the conduct during the viva, the outcome justification, and the fact I went in with such unrealistic expectations (recognising this is a subjective process, I still question how so many senior people got this so wrong and how I was encouraged to submit when I had reservations). My trust in the institution is shot.
• I'm re-writing and it's exhausting. I have ten comments to address, some are significant. The majority includes revising the literature review (not started) and methodology (just finished). There are other being chunks including potentially adding in a chapter on researcher reflexivity. My new supervisor is of the opinion let's do the bare minimum, but I have no idea what to think.
• I'm seriously considering approaching other institutions as I absoloutely do not want to face the same examination committee again. I'm pushing for a revised panel. Any views on whether a). a revised panel is advisable or b). I should be looking at other institutions are very welcome. However, the field I work in is tiny. My primary supervisor is very well respected in this field, as is the experienced external examiner. I don't want to burn bridges. I'm not looking for a career in academia (particularly after this)... so perhaps moving to a different institution may be okay?

Thanks to those who offered words of encouragement during the really painful early days and months. I'm now almost six months on and have greater clarity, though feel there are alot of questions still to be answered.

Any advice on the above or how to conduct the complaints meeting this week very welcome.

I also wanted to add - I received the examiners' prelimiary reports in February with provisional recommendations.

Mean internal (I could tell from comments though name redacted)- Withholding recommendation. Loads of comments.
External (unsure which) - Limited comments; no recommendation (paperwork not filled in).
External (unsure which) - Positive comments; recommended I pass.

Something has gone wrong somewhere. Someone familiar with my topic has passed me, one hasn't filled the paperwork in, and the internal who doesn't know about my topic or the wider discipline has most concerns.

This is also something I've raised in my complaint.

Incidentally the internal is an older straight white man (very arrogant), experienced external is an older white woman, and the inexperienced is a south asian older woman. Chair was younger and Chinese. The power dynamics are fascinating.

I missed this first time round .

fwiw when I did mine many years ago PhD candidates were always told going into their viva that if they had any major issues, it was a supervisor problem, as much if not more than a candidate.

as a result supervisors always made sure a thesis would pass before allowing submission, and I don’t know anyone in our dept who didn’t get through with minors. Supervisors always made a big effort to select examiners who knew the topic as well so understood the research.

I’d say you weren’t guided correctly more than a real problem with your thesis.

OP I really hope that by now there is light at the end of the tunnel for you! 🙏🏼

My viva is next week 😱

What a nightmare, still

I'm really pleased to hear you didn't withdraw though, amd hope you find a way to progress without further crap.

Wow, this just seems to get worse and worse @Nicoladb . I am so sorry that you have had such a rough time. The paperwork issues alone are 😡.

Have the union been helpful here too? I am astounded at the incompentence of what has happened, this is so unfair to you.

I would consider another examination set up personally if the uni are i agreement.

Hi,

I'm glad you have stuck with it and are working on the changes. To come to your specific questions

• i suggest leaning heavily on your new supervisor. If he/she has your back & wants to get you through, follow the advice.
• do stick with the complaints process - universities should take this very seriously. Before the meeting, write out a time-line of everything that happened during the supervision process and highlight where things went wrong. E.g. Sept 2022 - supervisor said i was on track to submit; Dec 2022 supervisor appointed X, Y and Z as examiners; Feb 2023 submitted thesis with approval of supervisor ....
• having a timeline & detail & facts will really help the complaints panel understand what happened.
• At my university, a 'chair' should be appointed for any viva where there is any risk of things going wrong. Ask why a chair was not appointed for your viva.
• I wouldn't look for a new institution - that doesn't seem to make sense and I don't know of cases where a new place would take on work from a different uni and supervisor. Stick with new supervisor instead.
• If you can get a new set of examiners appointed (or get the difficult internal replaced), that might be a good thing to go for.

I realise this is an old post but it has really resonated (hugely helped me) as last week I sat my viva after almost 9 years part time PhD and unexpectedly received a revise and resubmit. I was expecting major corrections- but this feels so much worse. I’m not an academic and have no one in my family/friendship group who has a PhD so had never even heard of this - I’ve just focussed on the “fail”. My supervisors, TAP team and mock viva have been surprised, and did not see this coming either.
I was told R&R without the need for another viva, and 12 months…can anyone explain how R&R is different to major corrections? I presume it’s just an indication that examiners believe work is of a much lower standard?
i think examiners had made their decision prior to the viva due to some
of the comments made, and that there was not 1 single positive comment made about the work through the viva.
Reading through the previous comments has been very helpful- I’m so sorry that others have been in a similar situation and I would not wish this on anyone. I have had very challenging experiences, but I have to say this has been one of the worst experiences of my life. I can’t stop crying (not actually a crier usually), can’t eat, sleep and feel so low.
I’ll await the report, but really question whether I should progress as I have missed out on almost 10 years with this over my head (I work full time in a very challenging job - not academic and PhD will make zero difference - it was always more of a personal challenge).
can anyone advise - am i automatically eligible for MSc or could my work be too poor for this too?? Also - those who been through this process - what would you do? The oral feedback in the viva felt subjective (external examiner directly challenged what my lead supervisor had repeatedly guided - and said “I would have guided you differently “ - they might have done - but they weren’t my supervisor!) so I am paranoid i can spend another year, only for them to subjectively judge something else.…

Hi @Chimps97

Sorry you are in the situation. Do start a new thread in academic corner and people will stop by to advise

Are you in arts or sciences? What did your supervisor say about the viva and outcome?