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Original poster

Any social science academics around?

113 replies

Piggywaspushed · 26/08/2022 18:27

Hi all, and sorry to barge into your space but ,for a range of reasons, I didn't want to put this in HE.

I'd like to understand exactly how bad an undergrad essay needs to be to outright fail, without having plagiarised or failed to comply with word limits. There is, of course, a story attached to this. I have read through quite a few threads and am 100% confident that none of you is at my DS's uni/his tutor.

I'm not agitating for evidence for an appeal ; I am just a bit confounded by a whole process and wanted some expert input. My DF is a retired lecturer and I have his thoughts but he is in marketing and hasn't marked undergrad work for about 10 years now.

If you can lend me your ears and thoughts please let me know! I obviously won't add lots of chapter and verse wastefully unless someone responds.

OP posts:
Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:28

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:25

Not responded to the feedback is not ‘personal criticism’ or any reflection on how the lecturer feels about your DS.

It actually sounds like he’s made the superficial changes but hasn’t engaged with the substance of the feedback. Which is incredibly common.

You have to try to be positive where possible in feedback. So ‘interesting’ can be a way of saying something not entirely negative about material that it’s really relevant and/or is poorly understood. ‘It was an interesting take on the topic’ is not necessarily a glowing endorsement. Especially if followed by ‘but’.

As a teacher , I do know that. There was no 'but' on that bit, as it goes. He didn't do the shit sandwich thing!

OP posts:
LuftBalloons · 27/08/2022 08:28

And as a post script, emailing an academic in August is not a good idea. I take the whole of august as annual leave - not actually to go on holidays (what are they?) but to get my research done uninterrupted by other things.

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:30

Are you sure there wasn’t an implied but? Because having 3 suitable academic sources and using them poorly will most definitely inflect the interpretation of ‘interesting’.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:31

LuftBalloons · 27/08/2022 08:28

And as a post script, emailing an academic in August is not a good idea. I take the whole of august as annual leave - not actually to go on holidays (what are they?) but to get my research done uninterrupted by other things.

But the academic is marking resits so not on leave?

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LuftBalloons · 27/08/2022 08:33

Everything @SudocremOnEverything says, especially this:

It’s likely that he’s fundamentally misunderstood some key aspects of the module and, in doing so, failed to demonstrate the learning outcomes. The fact he’s not been reading much academic material and is using stuff he googled for in its place is often associated with this. Students who do this very often just don’t learn the key stuff and can easily get entirely the wrong end of the stick. And/or the essay is full of entirely irrelevant material to the task set.

LuftBalloons · 27/08/2022 08:35

And I am required to interrupt my leave to mark resits. But I don’t respond to anything else. It’s bad enough to have to marks resits and deferrals in the only time of the year I can count on uninterrupted family time or not having to work weekends.

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:36

They may well be on leave for most of august but have to curtail this to mark
resits.

It’s actually quite hard to manage to take your annual leave in HE. You can’t do it in term time because you’re teaching. You can’t do it during the marking and exam board periods. You can’t do it while you’ve got panicky masters students completing dissertations to deal with. You can’t do it during august because of resits. And so on and so on. The institution (and the students, and their parents) seem to think you’re somehow letting people down if you aren’t there to do all the things they want immediately.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:36

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:30

Are you sure there wasn’t an implied but? Because having 3 suitable academic sources and using them poorly will most definitely inflect the interpretation of ‘interesting’.

The negative stuff was first in the feedback (and did have a personal tone using words I wouldn't use tbh in summative feedback ). The good staff came second and didn't have any qualification. I can't check the actual wording but there were no negative words. It wasn't glowing, obviously as the essay got 38! But it was definitely fairly positive.

We definitely all come up against more demanding critics in our time. I am clear tis guy has very exacting standards! It's perhaps a question of whether he ha failed something others would allow to pass (and a first marker gave 56). The plan for example has 56% and I can't myself see how that led to a failed essay.

I'd put it all down as a learning experience for DS if it weren't for the potential failure of the whole degree.

OP posts:
Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:38

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:36

They may well be on leave for most of august but have to curtail this to mark
resits.

It’s actually quite hard to manage to take your annual leave in HE. You can’t do it in term time because you’re teaching. You can’t do it during the marking and exam board periods. You can’t do it while you’ve got panicky masters students completing dissertations to deal with. You can’t do it during august because of resits. And so on and so on. The institution (and the students, and their parents) seem to think you’re somehow letting people down if you aren’t there to do all the things they want immediately.

Which is exactly why I told DS to stop emailing him as he deserves uninterrupted leave. He was on leave earlier in the summer but has replied to all of DS's emails in August (he hasn't bombarded him - I think there have been 3 separate email exchanges and a feedback exchange on the title and plan). I certainly don't want DS to irritate the guy.

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Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:39

LuftBalloons · 27/08/2022 08:33

Everything @SudocremOnEverything says, especially this:

It’s likely that he’s fundamentally misunderstood some key aspects of the module and, in doing so, failed to demonstrate the learning outcomes. The fact he’s not been reading much academic material and is using stuff he googled for in its place is often associated with this. Students who do this very often just don’t learn the key stuff and can easily get entirely the wrong end of the stick. And/or the essay is full of entirely irrelevant material to the task set.

To be fair to DS luft I did reply tot hat post and say I don't believe that is the problem. Nothing in the feedback says there are fundamental misunderstandings,or even a euphemism to imply this. I could see that something that basic would fail.

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burnoutbabe · 27/08/2022 08:40

Had the 38 been officially released? Or just spotted via an unhidden section of turnitin?

I'm writing about toxic behaviour on film sets during my masters and legal consequences of that and there isn't a ton of academic stuff directly on it so one had to use blogs and YouTube (panel discussions by industry experts) and newspapers reports as source data to describe the issue to suggest reforms needed. But that's a very niche area which I wouldn't have touched at undergrad.

What are his options now? Resit whole year? (And take a different module than this one) or take the 38 (which isn't very different to 40) and finish. No more essays ever again!

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:43

QuebecBagnet · 27/08/2022 08:26

On a completely separate note, is it hard as an academic to adjust if your own background is very intellectual (eg KCL, Oxbridge, LSE) to adjust to students at fairly low tariff 1992 institutions? Is it the same, but the other way round, as my DH not understanding that the kids he teaches in his selective school aren't actually dim?

interesting point and I’m not sure as I’ve only taught at low tariff universities. 😁. But as far as I’m aware (and I maybe wrong) a degree from one institution is meant to be as robust as a degree from another regardless of how prestigious one course is compared to another. 🤷‍♀️ Not sure if that’s true in practice or not.

One thing I am sure of though is that your DS can’t appeal his grade. He can appeal the process if he thinks something has been done incorrectly but he can not say well I think it’s worth x and you said it’s worth y. I’ve had students over the years try this, they trot off to the students union for help in getting their grade increased and I never hear of them again. The only time I upgraded someone’s mark when they complained to me was where the marker said they didn’t have a reference list, they did the marker hadn’t scrolled down far enough! 🙈😁

Thank you.

To be clear I wasn't criticising any institution. That was just me idly wondering. I know some post 92s put a lot of effort in year 1 into teaching some nuts and bolts to bring students up to standard. DS has been very happy at his uni but am not sure he did get that kind of input.

I don't mark to formula either btw - I teach very subjective subjects!

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SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:43

If 56 was a mark attributed to a plan, I’m going to guess that the actual assignment never got more than 38. Tthe preliminary ‘if you actually do what we’re hoping you mean in that plan’ formative mark was likely entered into the system in error. But, because these things are checked, this was corrected to the 38 that it actually got.

There’s usually a big difference between a plan and the result. You must know, as a teacher, that what a student says they’re going to do and what they actually do are often very different.

acfree123 · 27/08/2022 08:44

On a completely separate note, is it hard as an academic to adjust if your own background is very intellectual (eg KCL, Oxbridge, LSE) to adjust to students at fairly low tariff 1992 institutions?

There may be some period of adjustment during the first year you teach, but then you calibrate to the students that you are teaching. Assignment requirements and mark thresholds are different in lower tariff institutions. In fact they are also different between Oxbridge and other high tariff universities, so even when you move between these you need to adjust to the calibration in your new institution.

It wouldn't be possible for somebody to come into a lower tariff insitution from a research intensive university background and stick to unrealistic standards of marking - their module would be flagged as having anomalous marks during moderation and exam boards, and they would be asked to remark/recalibrate.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:45

The 38 isn't officially released, no.

He can't 'take the 38' if that became the mark for the whole module as he then fails the whole degree, hence my anxiety (and his, obviously). That would be three years wasted and I have never heard of anyone who has failed a degree at the last stage. It's probably more common than I think.

I do think/pray it will in the end pass...

OP posts:
Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:49

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:43

If 56 was a mark attributed to a plan, I’m going to guess that the actual assignment never got more than 38. Tthe preliminary ‘if you actually do what we’re hoping you mean in that plan’ formative mark was likely entered into the system in error. But, because these things are checked, this was corrected to the 38 that it actually got.

There’s usually a big difference between a plan and the result. You must know, as a teacher, that what a student says they’re going to do and what they actually do are often very different.

Yes, but the plan is an official mark, too.

So... to be clear since none of you do appear to be the tutor!

There are three marked components:

Seminar - 80 % not resat so not changed
Plan (God, original mark was 5% when he first failed!) - now shown as 65 last week, and now 56
Essay (showed 56 last week and now shows 38 - but should not have been visible) .

The essay is worth 65% of the overall mark for the module , the plan is worth20% and the seminar the rest. I may have got that last bit a bit wrong in weightings.

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Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:52

LuftBalloons · 27/08/2022 08:02

Not answering the question or doing what the assigned task asks the student to do

Not making a coherent argument

Not writing in comprehensible English

Clearly not taking the assignment seriously and writing about irrelevant stuff, or writing about what the studio thinks the assignment/module/topic should be rather than what is set.

Any of these things puts an essay in the 2, ii range. A combination of these things and I’d be discussing a fail with my 2nd marker.

Plagiarism is dealt with separately

Thanks.

Just noticing you don't mention a 3rd there?

I really don't think it's as awful as all of what you outline there. I accept I am not impartial. But I also have never thought the sun shines out of DS's backside.

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Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:56

SudocremOnEverything · 27/08/2022 08:27

Honestly, everything you say makes it clear that the problems are pretty fundamental. And also that your DS has a poor attitude to feedback.

The 80% for seminars could be purely based on attendance.

Show quote history

He doesn't have a poor attitude to feedback, any more than any other fairly anxious human. is future does depend on this after all.

The fact that he bit by bit fixed things , as he saw it, from initial feedback , sought help from my DF, his friend and me and listened to the advice of my DF and changed stuff suggests he does respond.

His feelings are a bit hurt by some of the negative words used in his second round of feedback. But that in itself isn't an issue. We all do this about feedback - fairly normal response.

OP posts:
OneCup · 27/08/2022 08:57

Has the board of examiners taken place and results have been officially released? There was recently (ie. June) a known fault with Turnitin whereby marks appeared visible to students even though they haven't officially been released. It could be the case that moderation hasn't been completed. In this case, first marker and moderator would need to meet and agree on a mark. They may not realise that the feedback and marks are visible to your son.

burnoutbabe · 27/08/2022 08:58

But the mark is capped to 40% anyway so would 40% not mean an overall fail?

Or would 40% capped give him a third and 38% a total fail?

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:58

Board has not met yet, no. Couple of weeks

They do realise now because they were told... marks have vanished but feedback is still there.

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Annigolden · 27/08/2022 08:59

How did he see the marks in Turnitin before it was released? Was the lecturer marking it before it was submitted? Don’t understand

My two penorth fWIW….we are under pressure to pass students tbh. When something fails it’s because it fails to meet the learning outcomes usually.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 08:59

If he fails the module, he fails the degree burnout. If he gets 40 he gets a 2:2 for his degree. Very odd to me!

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Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2022 09:01

Annigolden · 27/08/2022 08:59

How did he see the marks in Turnitin before it was released? Was the lecturer marking it before it was submitted? Don’t understand

My two penorth fWIW….we are under pressure to pass students tbh. When something fails it’s because it fails to meet the learning outcomes usually.

Yes, he saw two marks on Turnitin which seems to have been two different people's marks. This was a glitch. unfortunate because he saw the good marks first. Came running down the stairs, all excited.

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Annigolden · 27/08/2022 09:05

Aww no. That’s a shame.

does a fail now mean he’s failed the course? Assume so. You can’t appeal a mark.

Might have to retake the year?