When do you think universities will open?

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I would think they would be definitely be working to a September deadlines for the new academic year.
But do we think any sooner? I am professional services staff and currently working from home.

Reports today that some universities are considering having science, med, lab based etc degrees ‘on site’, and online only for arts and humanities students until january.

Would be interesting to know the student focus group response on that - my guess is that somehumanities/arts students would, in a strange way, be even more resistant to that than if everyone were online only. Paying £9k to be at home while others can be having the full experience is not going to be attractive to all of them - May not be logical, but human nature etc.

They may also think that even if univs are saying ‘online until january’ there is no guarantee whatever that it wont be extended, at least until easter (winter flu theory again, i know i keep going on about it!)

Also not clear how all art students can work online - dont they need studios? Perhaps ‘arts’ does not mean ‘art’! (Anyway presumably these newspaper reports arent talking about art colleges, as they do not have med/dental/science courses)

The problem most peopl ehave is not knowing the timing. Eg if they said medics back first and then the others on 1 November many arts people could tolerate that. if it is an indefinite date or not until April 2021 then people may well defer. Some subjects with less contact time the students particularly want all the clubs, groups, socialisation and if that is gone and all that is left is staying at home with your parents doing a few essays it is a very expensive way to spend a year.

Very expensive indeed, xenia. Students may also understandably take the view That 1 nov (for example!) is not a true guarantee but a date that could well end up being moved. And by that time it may be too late to get that terms fees refunded if you drop out.

I am starting to think that despite the lack of other opportunities more students will decide to defer/not go at all. Also to wonder whether this could be a bit of a crunch time for humanities generally - combined effect of strikes/online summer term this year, and online next year, may mean students rethink about whether to carry on/start. Obviously wont apply to to all universities - The decision whether to carry on if somewhere like lse that will boost your earning power massively will be different from the decision, say, at somewhere where it has a less obvious financial benefit.

Yes, even if I just compare with sons (both at Bristol, final term) one doing a BSc has had a lot more involvement, work, commitments for his degree, trips or expeditions or whatever they call them and the other - arts subject much less although he does work hard too and is doing loads on his dissertation at present but it is much less contact. He is isolating in his student house with I think it is 3 others (friends and housemates) but they know each other already. Freshers could not really do that and they cannot go out other than to the shop or for a walk either.

however if my child were going this Autumn to a good university it is hard to get into I would still want them to go ahead and just get it done even if the whole of year 1 was a bit of mess otherwise you could be stuck at home with no job and nothing to do. It is hardly going to be either graduate job or student hotel job central in the Autumn this year - it is going to be 1930s slump type job market.

Agree xenia, but i suppose if you get on reasonably well with your family you might think preferable to hunker down at home and be bored for a year (actually 18 months if counting from march) than pay 9k for a year of not very much. It may depend on a level results of course - if they’re good you may feel more inclined to take a chance on reapplying if univ refuses to defer. So it may become clearer in august.

I suppose Travel may open up in some places by Late autumn, provided you’re prepared to do 14 days quarantine on arrival. i do agree that the gap year jobs market is unlikely to be great. Obviously travel isnt financially viable for most students without some form of work beforehand to pay for it - And even dparents who might have paid previously may now find themselves less well off.

Allied healthcare students need to get back to their studies asap, these are the HCP's we will need for the future post CV, the UK will not have the access to overseas medics as it has in the past.

ATM 1st and 2nd year students don't really know what is happening, esp in regard to placement hours.

Perhaps ‘arts’ does not mean ‘art’!

It's art as opposed to science, not art as in finger paints etc. They are the 'creative arts'.

I think you’re right phonelock - ‘arts’ is basically english these days, as history, politics etc are now humanities, and Languages are mfl.

Anyway, hard to see how you could do some of the creative arts online -only, though who knows?

On a slightly different tack, track and trace about to be tested in the isle of wight this week, so perhaps this will transform the landscape. Universities may be a relatively easy place to do this, as (except in london) students may be less likely to be on Long crowded journeys on public transport, and tend to stay in a relatively small radius.

In the ST, it says 'arts and humanities' subjects.

I think you’re right phonelock - ‘arts’ is basically english these days, as history, politics etc are now humanities, and Languages are mfl

All of those are humanities subjects. The terms "arts" and "humanities" are often used interchangeably, and with variation between universities. The university I work at has a faculty of arts, which includes English, history, and languages. Politics is in the social sciences. Other universities will have a faculty of humanities which includes the social sciences.

Some snippets about what the govt. will/won't do.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

We were told today to plan for the first term back in the autumn to be online, and possibly also term 2 (to be confirmed this month). In in a global health faculty, so sciences, but not laboratory sciences and not clinical, so there is no hands on work like with patients or in a lab. It's a bit sobering.

Yes that Is indeed sobering, and also a little puzzling - is that as a contingency or a definite decision? Presumably the univ has calculated it wont lead to too many no shows and drop outs?

Media Attention seems to be turning to the issue - articles in telegraph and times today about different aspects (unfairness of charging full fees for this term, and rent for unoccupied accommodation). As we approach september i think the question may get more press attention.

Those with fewer classes may well be there for the social side even more than the laboratory etc hard workers so even less likely to want it to be on line. If I were a university I would risk just opening as normal with some social distancing advice. Only about 400 people under 45 have died of covid 19 in the UK so far ( probably fewer than non covid 19 related to lock downs such as husbands killing wives etc and people not reporting heart attacks soon enough)

(And after 4 days mine locked down at university is now home as is his housemate at his/her home- it wasn't great locked down there, but at least both my twins' houses have someone of their housemates in the house so the £3k I paid for this term (which will be for the house with 6 in it usually £9000 paid for by parents for the summer term which none of us will get back) is being enjoyed by one student; better than being empty)

The staff are not ‘under 45’. Are you happy for them to be put at risk as well?

My DCs uni has c4000 academic and admin staff and 16000 students. That number does not include staff who have been off-payrolled (cleaners, catering staff, janitorial services) and it’s not clear it even includes all the casual academics. So at a conservative estimate, another thousand people, who will have to go back to work in environments where social distancing is difficult or impossible.

Would it be possible to let first years back in September, to try to prevent a large number deferring, with second and third years online for term 1 but back in January?

I know it might not work in all subjects and would require some creativity in delivery...

Yes very good point about all the staff avenging gerbil.
Off topic a little, but there is some discussion now that perhaps all under 45s might return to work (of course not those who have known vulnerability, and i realise obviously that you cant predict). I dont know whether there would be scope to have a mixture of online and face to face teaching, and only those younger staff to return to face to face, and to do the other work avenging gerbil mentions? Complicated and expensive and not 100% risk free, certainly. On the other hand i dont think the ‘online until january or actually april’ is going to be problem-free for universities either. A proportion of students (and possibly their dparents where they have influence!) may just not be prepared to risk £9k for what may turn out to be a year of online-only teaching, and no social activities. Even if the alternative is sitting at home with no work or travel, that may be considered preferable.

I suppose a critical question for the universities is ‘how high is that proportion who wont turn up or return’, and how much financial assistance will they get from govt to compensate for the lost revenue?

Dreamingbohemian good constructive thinking there! In a strange way for some 3rd years it may be less important to have the social side of things as you tend to get more immersed in the study side of it, pending finals - though arguably you also need more teaching/lab time.

I do think universities may be underestimating the reluctance to incur huge debt for what Some students will see as not very much (and the paradox is that it will be hugely expensive for universities to provide it - so Everyone’s worse off!). Truth is, the social side and living away is a huge part of the draw For many students - if that werent the case there wouldnt be so many opting for leaving home usually). That is what many are paying £9k for.

I think unis are underestimating too - so many parents and students on here saying that but not being heard.

As the entire uk workforce will be facing this prob in June I really don’t understand why sept/Oct seems more risky to some on here. Compared to so many jobs/industries uni campus life seems more easily managed/controlled. Full of intelligent people for a start!

Thanks fromlittleacorns :) I think you are right and universities are overestimating how resilient student numbers are. I think it's one thing to expect students already immersed in a university to basically have one term online, but why wouldn't first years defer if they can? Especially when tuition is so high.

That said, they are saying youth unemployment will go through the roof, so students may well stick with university online if they don't see many other options.

I'd be happy to go onto campus only for lab classes and seminars - lab classes can be quite full but even if it's once a week for both terms, straight from the car to the lab, or halved so it's twice a week (though where we get the rooms from I don't know), seminars are only 10-15 students and hardly any of them turn up so we could do social distancing in those classes. I'd add in a few student meetings but only a couple of urgent ones per term. Not 6 back to back meetings scheduled once a week and another 4 dropping in over the week when they see fit.

I'm not happy to have to go onto campus 2-3 times a week (I work part time but often find I have to do that for meetings), for all meetings to be face to face, for all student meetings to be in my office, and to have all large lectures in crammed lecture theatres. I have actually given a research seminar in lecture style online already and I would be happy to do that (it's possible to take questions, check reactions, which is what we need to do in lectures).

If students, also, had mainly online but a few practicals in person, they would have to be on campus if they were in STEM; but if only STEM and/or only some years were on campus this would make social distancing in shops, cafes etc. easier. Students could then have their on campus flat community, and some clubs. Not ideal but better than nothing.

In my (large) department if we relied on under 45s doing the direct face to face teaching that would mean conservatively around only 10 - 20% of available academic staff

The younger group (largely GTAs and fixed term people ) are not now available for teaching next year

We have a younger profile among our staff (probably 50:50, we have just retained two fixed term lecturers thank goodness).
Admin staff, beloved of students and part of the furniture, and a really important part of the student experience, are another matter. I can't think of one (maybe one?) who's under 45.