When do you think universities will open?

[googlepoodle]

I would think they would be definitely be working to a September deadlines for the new academic year.
But do we think any sooner? I am professional services staff and currently working from home.

Our university has said that we should take 40-60% of annual leave before the end of July. Hollow laughter all round.

Our department has said similar. They seem to have forgotten that those of us involved in full-time undergrad teaching aren't allowed to take leave during term time and even if we were, there is no time to fit it in. We are stupidly busy at the moment and, as somebody else pointed out, the marking deluge hasn't started yet.

As far a I know 3 of our nearest universities are planning for remote learning September to January in the hope they are back to normal in January.

I don't think that will work to get students to actually start in September. Whilst I'm sure the teaching etc can be done remotely and with SD, they'll miss out on the usual Freshers Week and those first few weeks of "getting to know you", so many having their first taste of freedom etc. You can't replicate that experience a few months later once everyone has settled in locked away in their rooms. Of course, there'll be students only interested in the academic side who it may suit, but I think the vast majority may well just not bother and sit out the year.

"As far a I know 3 of our nearest universities are planning for remote learning September to January in the hope they are back to normal in January."

still not understanding why January is better than September to go back to normal, given the winter flu? From an NHS capacity point of view, at least. Unless the hope is that there is a vaccine or drug treatment by January rather than September - though students probably wouldn't be a priority for vaccines?

Kazzy that is very interesting, and something that fortifies my wondering whether the universities are underestimating the 'no show' impact of starting online. And I think that at least some students are likely not to go at all, rather than deferring (not necessarily a bad thing overall, I suppose).

The remote learning was for those continuing their studies who are already at the unis. I’m not sure what the plans were for new starts but like you have said I think many people will defer to start the year after,

Ours are hugely underestimating the September no-shows, imo.

First-year students on our programme would usually go into their first clinical placements within 8 weeks of starting in September. There's no chance whatsoever of that happening this year . Once the prospective 2020 cohort cotton on to that many will decide to sit the year out.

We've been told to be 'vague' about what September onwards will look like, when doing online incubator events - what a great intro to the university.

"First-year students on our programme would usually go into their first clinical placements within 8 weeks of starting in September. There's no chance whatsoever of that happening this year ."

Again not being difficult, and I don't know what the clinical speciality is, but just wondering why there is no chance of clinical placements starting in November? NHS is supposed to be getting back to addressing non corona issues (to the extent that it stopped - obviously i realise a lot still carried on!), so why wouldn't the placements be available by then? (I realise it may not be NHS of course, but does the same apply?)

It sounds possible that another issue will be students starting and dropping out after a few weeks if the course doesn't live up to expectations. If placements don't happen, that will be disappointing for the students (to put it mildly).

acorns it's more about the support and qualified supervision that's available to less-experienced students in practice during the corona crisis.

All our current 1st years - who already have 3 months of clinical practice experience under their belts - have been removed from further placements because in the current situation the clinical areas cannot give junior students the support and supervision they need. They also have big clinical assessment documents to complete on placement that take up staff time and resources. It's not quite so bad for more experienced students who 'know the ropes' but for first years it's daunting at the best of times.

A 2nd wave later this year will only make matters worse, and Trusts will be dealing with a huge backlog of cases that have been postponed through covid reorganisation. All that = zero chance of placements for first years starting any time before January (and even that seems optimistic tbh)

So yeah, fun times ahead.

Yes I too think universities / many colleagues are too complacent about the number of domestic first years that will come -- because we are so aware of all the work and thought that's going into preparing to teach online, it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. I think right now students and final year school pupils are caught up in worrying about all the alternative assessments etc, but once that's over they and their families will start thinking seriously about what it would be like to start / continue university "remotely" and many will defer and some existing students will ask to interrupt. People keep saying there's nothing else for them to do because they can't travel but that seems odd to me - there's loads of quite lively volunteering and organisation going on at a very local level, and also lots of students will have family members with caring needs complicated by the situation - e.g. younger siblings off school while parents are struggling to work. It'll be harder than usual to find casual work (except in some areas eg agriculture) but many f/t students rely on income from work too: if there's little prospect of earning they may be more reluctant to take on the debt of student fees.

I fear that bumbling may be right that we're all going to slog all summer, potentially face loads of extra teaching in the autumn (due to removal of GTAs, teaching fellows etc) and then face a round of redundancies anyway in the new year.

Personally I’ve never said people shouldn’t have holidays. The reality is many of us will be working more this year to hold onto jobs, whatever our fields.

The unis who survive this best will be the ones who are able to adapt fast, open physically as much as possible and reassure new and existing students. Holding on to old ways is no longer an option for any of us.

It's really tedious on a board that was set up for academics to talk about their jobs to have to keep countering ignorant points by people who clearly want to vent their dislike for academics. I don't go onto Legal Issues and needle lawyers.

Exactly this. Why are you here, Newgirls?

Oh , don't worry, the same thing happens in staffroom. in fact, more

for HE colleagues.

It's really tedious on a board that was set up for academics to talk about their jobs to have to keep countering ignorant points by people who clearly want to vent their dislike for academics. I don't go onto Legal Issues and needle lawyers

Why do you think it's just academics? The accountingweb website is just as bad - it's for accountants but loads of non-accountants are either poking accountants or wanting freebie advice. I'm pretty sure all industry-specific chat sites suffer the same.

Is there a banging one's head against a wall smiley on here?

There should be

My university is telling all that we cannot now cancel booked leave "it's important for our wellbeing" except that there's so much work to be completed there's no choice but to work through the leave ( otherwise you're letting student and colleagues down and the thought of forthcoming redundancies are never far away)

I mean it's a genius idea - leave gets used up but the university still gets the work done 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, damekindness - my husband was told he couldn't cancel the leave he'd booked over Easter. He had to work through it in order to move all his teaching online, though.

except that there's so much work to be completed there's no choice but to work through the leave ( otherwise you're letting student and colleagues down and the thought of forthcoming redundancies are never far away)

Based on first hand experience, how much work you do or have done in the past has no bearing on whether or not you will be selected for redundancy. How much work you will have in the future is what they are concerned about.

I’m really sorry that people are having to work through leave - it’s not right.

Even without the ability to travel, do a range of internships etc, I'm sure many young people and their families will be cautious about paying out full fees for a student who has been on the computer all summer to carry on sitting in front of their computer all autumn listening to downloaded lectures and occasionally peering at their lecturers and other students through Zoom or Teams!

University is expensive and for many people one of the highlights of their life, a place to meet lifelong friends and (though less common than it was) a partner. It's also very short. In terms of full term, not much more than 18 months. So why miss out on any of that? If I had DC in year 13 I'd be advising them to take a gap year if they aren't going to be taught in person.

From our side, though, this won't work... a loss of income from domestic fees and accommodation next year would be catastrophic for many institutions... The international students will largely be staying away anyway. (Interesting article in NYT today about same problem in US, where top universities are already digging down into their wait list to try to ensure a full freshman class.)

I work in academic publishing in a uni city and work closely with the uni inc many lecturers. I have a teen hoping to start uni this year.

Our mixed online and in-person teaching isn’t (hopefully) going to be anything like the ad hoc stuff we did at the end of last term. We’ve been told that recorded lectures are not acceptable. It’s going to be a much more student led, flipped classroom approach, to try to give some community to all the students, so students on campus will be working with those off campus. Of course it’s all a bit experimental and the road to hell is paved with good intentions but I feel there is a good chance that this is going to revolutionise our rather conservative teaching and lead to long term gains. I’m finally dragging some of my colleagues out of the 19th century model of the lecturer as font of all knowledge.

I apologise to those I’ve upset - I didn’t mean to and it is a stressful time for all. I wish you all well.

Hopsalong a very interesting perspective - and add in that term 3 of yr 3 is often not a full term anyway, so yr 1 is an even higher proportion of the total.
I hope univs are as aware of this potential consequence as they need to be. To me it points to trying to be fully up and running ‘on site’ for anyone who wants to.
Who knows how things are going to turn out, but if govt is planning schools and work to start again end may, it doesnt seem unrealistic for universities to start ‘properly’ in september. (Assuming back to work has gone smoothly). Track and trace should also help with that - perhaps a case for focusing efforts on large universities for a couple of weeks if there turns out to be a shortage of tests/tracers?

There is another aspect of universities which is important, they are often a key part of the local economy and if towns and cities are to get back to any sort of normal the students will have to get back at some point. 10% of my city’s population are students, that’s a lot of food eaten, bus fares paid and paper and pens bought (or more likely phone screens replaced than paper bought ).

We’ve been told that recorded lectures are not acceptable

I can't see anything wrong with them as long as they are followed up with discussion session afterwards.

Absolutely chemenger, and Lots of rent paid To private landlords as well (though students’ impact on local housing is not always positive i know).

Im not seeing much reference in the media to the govt considering ‘universities’ as an issue at the moment, unlike eg schools, shops etc, yet Im guessing around 1.5 mn young adults are involved - very significant Impact on the national and local economies. ( though to some extent the ones who Defer/drop out and get paid work - quite an if - will consume in their home town instead).