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University staff common room

This board is for university-based professionals. Find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further education forum.

Would you/ how would you respond to this email?

142 replies

GameOldBirdz · 11/06/2017 09:02

Students received their marks on Friday.

They had to do two pieces of work.

Student emailed to say he was "baffled" (his words) by the marks as he'd received a lower mark for the piece of work which was "by far the higher quality piece of work" (his words again)

There's no question in the email so nothing to directly respond to IYSWIM.

Would you respond to this email? If so, what the fuck would you say without using the words "jumped up little tosser"?

I'm leaning towards just not bothering to respond as ultimately I don't give a fuck if he's "baffled"

Grin
OP posts:
Guitargirl · 12/06/2017 06:22

This thread is a really interesting read for the views from both sides of the fences. FWIW - here's my take.

I don't think the OP was really asking for advice, I think she was having a rant about a student email which had got under her skin (and she was also annoyed that she had let it get under her skin in the first place).

The comments about the student/'customer' dynamic are an illustration of everything that is flawed about the commercialisation of the education experience.

The contribution from the pp who explained that as an academic she is an expert/world leader in her field. Am not disagreeing with that. But being an expert does not always mean that expert is also a great pedagogue. Some academics are brilliant researchers but are pretty useless at communicating their expertise to students. And some - as is evidenced by a few posts on this thread - have little interest in doing so.

gentleshouting · 12/06/2017 06:46

There IS an issue with students and their ability to effectively and politely communicate over email. I had 20 emails this weekend that don't have a proper address or sign off, don't state who they are, what course they are on and just demand information (info which is available on moodle already!)

One of my roles is to monitor students on placement with organisations and the one piece of feedback ALL employers I've met with have said is that the students can't use email properly. We shouldn't be saying 'oh it's ok, we'll let you talk like it's a tweet' parents/teachers/academics (if it gets that far) should be teaching them what is appropriate and what isn't.

My strategy is to invite in for a feedback discussion and if they accept that also give some advice about how to correctly use email.

Guitargirl · 12/06/2017 06:50

Advice on how to use email? The student is 20 years older than the OP not a snap chatting, tweeting sixth-former.

OhTheRoses · 12/06/2017 06:54

gentleshouting you make a very good point. Emails without a designation or a sign off, making demands without a please or thank you are horrid to receive. Usually I receive them from academics. I have to take a deep breath and reply nicely governs in dignified. I often wonder why people who are so highly educated think they can address people so rudely.

Paninotogo · 12/06/2017 07:11

I am not totally surprised he is questioning your judgement and expertise if the tone and language of your initial post is anything to go by. Why are you seeking advice from an Internet forum on how to do your job? I agree with a PP that I would not trust someone like you to teach my children. and you used the word anyways

SwissChristmasMuseum · 12/06/2017 07:13

HamletsSister, who says things are changing for the better, though? In my opinion, all this haggling detracts from the essential job of getting your head down, getting on with your work and actually learning something. Most things are clear if one takes the trouble to read the information already available.

HamletsSister · 12/06/2017 08:22

Certainly not for the better. My workload is huge. Kids are very demanding, parents more so.

Look, I am knackered. I am not trying to fight anyone, honestly.

But, if it starts in school, it is bound to carry on into University. If you want things to change, education as a whole needs looks at.

And, sorry, I know as much as I need to to do my job and am considered pretty good at that. However, like the OP, my weekends are spent eying to have some sliver of a life - currently reading (book about Jane Austen) something which is only loosely linked to my job.

Not all academics are good teachers. Not all teachers are academics (while I teach Chaucer and Shakespeare, a disproportionate amount of my week is spent on the bloody full stop) and not all students are polite and reasonable. Many are pretty vile.

But if schools spoon feed, bend over backwards and do everything for them - you will reap what we sow.

NImbleJumper · 12/06/2017 09:25

Your cautionary tale is fairly irrelevant as well. My discipline is all about demolishing each other's arguments. If we gave up every time someone proved us wrong Socrates's name would have been long forgotten.

I'm glad you say this Booboostwo because I was puzzled at how a question at a conference from a PhD student could completely derail a research career (unless it was one's own student saying that the Prof. had plagiarised the PhD research). I love getting difficult questions that question the basis of my arguments - they force me to go back and rethink, again, my arguments. This makes my arguments stronger, not wrong.

NImbleJumper · 12/06/2017 09:28

Some academics are brilliant researchers but are pretty useless at communicating their expertise to students

ARGH, I hate this cliché trotted out in threads like these, inevitably. In my field (it may be different in others) the best researchers are usually also outstanding teachers (I used to run a national teaching body, so I saw this across the discipline nationally).

Anatidae · 12/06/2017 09:30

"Dear Student,

If you'd like to discuss further, please book a time (specify your time availability) with me - bring along both pieces along with specific sections/issues you would like explanations of. We can go through the mark scheme and marking rationales and hopefully you can leave with some feedback on why piece A gained a higher mark and how you can apply this to future work"

Yours sincerely, yadayada.

NImbleJumper · 12/06/2017 09:32

Sorry, pressed post too soon: Guitargirl I think you're spot on with the OP simply having a rant, and others of us, with similar experiences with arrogant students, joining in. This doesn't mean, though, that we don't care about teaching or students.

Actually, I'd say the reverse is so - we care a lot, and so we obsess about the little things, and get annoyed with ourselves for letting the clumsiness and gracelessness of students to get under our skin. THat's what this thread is about, actually!

As I also said upthread - no sensible poster on MN would call Social Services when a poster starts a thread saying "Sometimes I hate my DC" - it doesn't mean that that poster is a child abuser. Probably again, quite the reverse - they care SO much that they worry about perfectly natural feelings of irritation, annoyance (or stronger, such as "hate"). Not because they don't care, but because they very much DO care.

Anatidae · 12/06/2017 09:36

Pressed send too soon.

By doing this you concede nothing, you are starting from a position that your marking scheme is correct. You ask him to contribute work to the meeting, so he knows in advance it's a learning exercise not a chance to negotiate. You meet with the respectful agenda of teaching him. He hopefully leaves with an understanding of why piece A was better and how he can apply that in the future.

He could be a pushy arse, but he could also be genuinely looking for feedback. Having been both student and lecturer I would find this a respectful approach on both sides.

I've also had pieces I thought were hastily done marked excellent. I would never have queried them unless it was a specific, objective item (a concrete fact/equation/process marked as wrong.) even then I'd have gone in with the 'could you explain to me why this is wrong because I was so sure it was right and I can't see where I messed up" approach.

Guitargirl · 12/06/2017 10:17

ARGH, I hate this cliché trotted out in threads like these, inevitably.

I am just speaking from my experience. It may be your idea of a cliche but it is what I have experienced. I did not say all, I said some which has been based on what I have experienced from university life in several institutions - as both student & staff. It may be a cliche to you but that doesn't invalidate my own experience.

Have to say some of the academic threads on MN show a remarkable (an ironic) lack of nuance. Grin

NImbleJumper · 12/06/2017 11:56

And I'm speaking from my experience - so we're both wrong and we're both right. We both should remember, that data is not the plural of anecdote.

And if you want nuance, I'm not sure an informal messageboard, where people are posting in a rush, informally, is the place to look. But I did use several qualificatory phrases/words: 'in my field' and 'usually.' And I did support that view by citing my experience as director of a national body for teaching in my discipline of course in MNworld, that counts as boasting, or thinking myself too good for teaching, or snobbish, or whatever

In my experience of messageboards (beyond MN too) most posters don't want carefully nuanced posts - because those become long and complicated, and IME, open the poster up to being told they're being boring/arrogant/patronising/whatever.

But I could give you a fully referenced reading list about the correlation between excellent research and excellent teaching? Or about the biases of students in evaluating their teaching/lecturers - which biases tend to reflect general socially dominant views of women and ethnic minorities eg students tend to have sexist and racist (often) unconscious bias.

Booboostwo · 12/06/2017 12:06

In my experience I've rarely come across bad teachers. There are good teachers and better teachers, there are beginners or those teaching a new course and there are different styles of teaching but those who dislike teaching can easily move to research or research and managerial positions.

I'd go even further and say that, at least in mydiscipline, the distinction between teaching and research is grossly exaggerated. I know of numerous examples of research pieces that started life as teaching efforts. I don't think much is gained by drawing a hard and fast distinction between teaching and research, other than playing into the hand of those who want to push for teaching only contracts - a catastrophe for HE.

Guitargirl · 12/06/2017 12:16

I was pointing out NImble that I did not try to belittle your views or experience by labelling them as 'cliche', as you did with mine, simply because they were different from yours.

And you're right, your offer of providing me with a reading list is incredibly patronising.

HamletsSister · 12/06/2017 12:54

Not sure how my relative's experience is irrelevant.

In my own discipline (literature) yes, we constantly argue and attempt to change views or look at things in different ways. From what I know of Philosophy it is built on arguments about ideas and theories.

But this was a huge research project in a very different (hard science) discipline and it had huge effects on self-esteem and meant that all of the "I am an academic and top in my field" points were lost, overnight. Without giving too much away it was a bit like being the Professor of the Flat Earth Society, presenting a paper on the flatness of the earth and being demolished, in front of all the other people in that area, in public.

Academia is, in my opinion, brutal to those who are engaged in research. Which makes the teaching side all the more important as, in the end, that was what my relative was left with.

Back to the full stop.....

Godstopper · 12/06/2017 13:17

Second the observation that some students need to learn basic manners when sending an e-mail.

I've had a few of these. For example, one asked for clarification on some issue she was revising. Fine. Replied. Then received another. No 'thank you', just launched into a Q. A bit irked, but replied. Then received two more without an acknowledgement of my helping her, or even a basic "Dear Godstopper." At that point, I delayed replying for as long as we're allowed too: I have no wish to help rude students.

A part of this is laziness. They are sending from their phones etc and just don't think to be polite. But there is also, as I've come to realise, an element of "I'm paying £9000 a year and you should do what I say" which I resent.

I completely get the OP's exasperation. Comments from those outside academia also interesting.

Waves to Boboo - ECR philosopher here, and the landscape is increasingly grim (TEF, NSS ...).

Booboostwo · 12/06/2017 14:30

HamletsSister everyone's research successes and failures have a huge effect on their self-esteem, this doesn't just affect hard scientists. One of the aims of professional development as an academic is to develop intellectual humility and see the point of failures. Even catastrophic research failures are not pointless because they show others what not to do.

Believe me philosophers have as large an ego as hard scientists and public failures in front of one's peers are as disheartening. If anything some philosophers that they are brighter than anyone else in academia.

Well balanced individuals, from all disciplines, understand that the importance of accepting that all we know is that we know nothing and seeing the significance of their individual contribution to research in context.

Sorry for the hijack OP!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 12/06/2017 14:57

I'm another one saying students need to learn professional courtesy/email etiquette. Even mature students. I think it ought to be part of our job.

That said, I had my own issue with a student recently, who wrote an email that was (probably mistakenly) much, much ruder than they realised and much ruder than I should have to put up with. And I did write to them to explain that they needed to reassess their understanding of professional courtesy, because they would alienate people otherwise. I didn't try to make it sound snide or mean - just informative.

I'm not entirely sure how successful it was, though.

FloralTribute · 12/06/2017 15:36

I'm another one saying students need to learn professional courtesy/email etiquette. Even mature students. I think it ought to be part of our job.

That said, I had my own issue with a student recently, who wrote an email that was (probably mistakenly) much, much ruder than they realised and much ruder than I should have to put up with. And I did write to them to explain that they needed to reassess their understanding of professional courtesy, because they would alienate people otherwise. I didn't try to make it sound snide or mean - just informative.

Oh God, this. On two recent occasions one an undergraduate, one a PhD student I've had two very rude emails, only to discover, when the two students in question came to see me at my request, that neither of them had consciously intended any rudeness at all. In one case, it was just a complete ignorance of how you write a normally polite email, and in the other, the student simply had a tin ear for tone (which as you can imagine is not the best qualification for someone studying literature). Grin

And, in terms of being challenged by the more lowly. An cautionary tale. A close relative of mine recently retired as Head of a large, prestigious University department. The relative (.being cautious here about details) had spent some years developing a ground breaking new piece of research which was presented at a conference of academics from around the world. When it was time for questions, the question, apparently, from the front row, from a 20 something, shot a fatal hole in my relative's research. Said relative remained as Head of department, kept the Professorship, but it was all based on work from years earlier.

Said relative then began referring to themselves as a teacher and focussed far more on nurturing talent and less on highlighting previous laurels.

Hamlets I don't think you can have understood your relative's story, or how academia works. No one credible, in any field, still less a professor, just bobs up at a conference with something that hasn't been multiply tested/discussed/evaluated elsewhere. Typically, a project big enough to have taken up several years of research time will have needed major funding, which means that even before the research is embarked upon, the viability of the research will have been assessed and peer-reviewed, often many times, by assessors for the funding bodies applied to. A single question from a brilliant doctoral student may have exposed a flaw, or asked a new and difficult question (which is what conferences are for, after all!) but it won't have fatally punctured any credible large-scale research project.

And are you actually suggesting that there's a mechanism for defrocking professors once their current research has been found wanting? Also, absolutely no one wants to be head of department, which is rather like amputating your own leg with a butter knife, only with a lot more bureaucracy.Grin

gentleshouting · 12/06/2017 15:44

LOLing at the idea a professor could be sacked because someone critiqued their theory Grin no one would ever dare say anything in case it wasn't absolute truth! The professors I know would have taken the opportunity to publish another 50 papers on the doctoral student's insight.

HamletsSister · 12/06/2017 16:36

No, the relative was not "defrocked" just lost confidence and credibility and then did no more major projects and research.

You are right I don't understand it the subject. It is so far from my area of expertise. However, it is true - the relative was at a conference, presenting findings and the question undid everything.

Sadly, my impression of academics which was mostly very positive (friends and family, plus going to 3 different Universities) is not being borne out by the patronising comments on here.

HamletsSister · 12/06/2017 16:38

And relative now nearly 80 and still Emeritus Professor.

Booboostwo · 12/06/2017 16:41

It's perfectly possible for one individual to have a crisis of confidence in academia. You need nerves of steel for the profession, you constantly run he gauntlet of rejection from peers, journals, research proposals, book editors, conference audiences, and you have to have the guts to still stand up in front of hundreds of students and say something informative and engaging.

Engaging in rational discourse is not patronising. You are making pronouncements on something you know close to nothing about. People have taken the time to point out the many ways in which you have fundamentally misunderstood academia, and the very discussion isn't a case in point.