Would you/ how would you respond to this email?

[GameOldBirdz]

Students received their marks on Friday.

They had to do two pieces of work.

Student emailed to say he was "baffled" (his words) by the marks as he'd received a lower mark for the piece of work which was "by far the higher quality piece of work" (his words again)

There's no question in the email so nothing to directly respond to IYSWIM.

Would you respond to this email? If so, what the fuck would you say without using the words "jumped up little tosser"?

I'm leaning towards just not bothering to respond as ultimately I don't give a fuck if he's "baffled"

Noeuf Yes, you're right. I guess I would have liked him to say why he thought one was better then I could explain why that's not the case.

But I can't do much with a generic email of "I thought one was better than the other" because he's got extensive feedback for both which explains the good/bad points of each. Responding to his generic email would basically mean restating the feedback which he's already got. Hence my attitude of "This has been marked and explained in feedback".

I did this once. I got a HD for the first essay and a credit for the second. I was unsure if the difference. The tutor responded she had easy marked the first and hard marked the second. It left me even more confused and idea how to improve.

I would probably respond with the two grades and how each area was graded with comments. Don't you do this anyway in your feedback?

Or I would say 'Thank you for your email. I am unsure what is baffling you. Please refer to the grades and feedback?' Well, a bit less tetchy but that kind of response.

Anyways, I'm annoyed with myself for giving this any head space on the weekend. Students are bad enough Monday to Friday let alone thinking about work on Sunday mornings.

Enough of my weekend wasted on this. Thanks for all your comments, it's been really helpful.

Off to make a bacon butty

II think you need to offer a meeting.

I think the non-academics on the thread will probably not realise that the student will already have feedback that explains where he went wrong and how to address this.

My students have a really thorough set of assignment-specific grade related criteria and they get feedback in relation to this. Plus they get their essay annotated and some written overall feedback. We have to write feedback that clearly justifies the mark we've given.

The ones who email to say they're confused (or they want their mark reviewed, because clearly they know better than us) often have not bothered to read this feedback. The numbers of times I've had to meet a student who doesn't understand where s/he's going wrong only to discover (because the electronic system monitors this) that they haven't opened the feedback on any of their work. They have learned to perform 'confused' and helpless rather than to take responsibility for their own learning.

This isn't an opportunity to please my 'customers'.

. Students are bad enough Monday to Friday
Enough of my weekend wasted on this.
Your attitude stinks, tbh. You have had a lot of good advice on how you should fulfil your role and educate this student on where he went wrong, but you still seem to think you're above such things.
And you've asked people for advice then refer red to that as wasting your weekend!

If you dislike teaching so much, please go do something else with your life :-(, and stop thinking you're better and your time more valuable, than other people's, its arrogant.

That isn't what the OP said at all. She said she was annoyed at herself for wasting her weekend thinking about students and thanked people for the advice.

Also, the student has already had extensive feedback so the OP is not shirking off the need to help him see where he went wrong.

The thing is, academics are going to have to move away from seeing themselves as experts and experienced, even when they are just that. Pupils in schools are being taught to ask for feedback (in Scotland - learning conversations) and teachers are expected to be able to provide it, and evidence their marks

the thing is academics ARE experts - that is the point. We are not school teachers, undergraduates are not at school (how many more times do we have to say this?). I am one of the world experts in my field, and have lead research projects, departments and national /international research groups, as well as national peak body for teaching in my area.

I am more than capable of explaining to a baffled UG about his feedback & grade. And that "baffled" UG needs to learn the appropriate way to ask these sorts of questions - he will be in the workforce soon, when his line manager may not treat him with the care that academics take in these matters.

UGs need to learn - rather urgently in some cases - how to approach their seniors (ie lecturers) with respect and engage in a genuine exchange. Not the entitled rudeness that some of them adopt.

The thing is, I don't think most of them realise quite how rude they are being. And quite what an adjustment they will need to make when they are working for a living. We don't do them any favours by not gently pointing this out - I do try to do this for students - as some of them are coming out of school with this weird mix of anxiety & entitlement - something is always someone else's responsibility.

Oops just read more of the thread & seen that he's not a 20 year old - that he's a mature student. Again, not surprised.

I do think it's tough for older men, used to calling the shots, to be put back in the position of being the junior in the teaching relationship. Once they get used to it, though, they can be really fantastic students. But they have to learn to be open & vulnerable & that's tough for a male mature student (the opposite for female mature students - IME they generally need buoying along & are just great one they get confidence - I love teaching them!).

So I'd reiterate offering him a meeting, and start by saying: "Right you're baffled. Let me explain."

Don't start with an open question - although starting with an open question "What's baffling you?" is what I'd usually do - but not if a student has been rude/arrogant in asking. Because in this case, I think what you've inferred is that his asking in this way is basically a passive-aggressive way of saying " I don't agree with your evaluation of my work." But he's not in a position to argue this, frankly.

Although some posters on this thread may not like accepting that. But it's the case.

I'm glad you are not my son's lecturer. "Don't give a fuck if he's baffled"? "Students are bad enough Monday to Friday" ?

What an appalling attitude towards someone who is paying 9K a year to be taught by you.

No it's not - would you be pleased if your DS thought that it was OK to send a rude/arrogant email to someone senior? And send it out of working hours?

Undergrads need to learn appropriate professional behaviour.

"out of working hours" = non issue. We can choose when we respond to work emails.

Rude/arrogant? Maybe - or from his point of view, someone who cares about their marks, may have invested a lot of time and is genuinely confused.

Nothing the OP has said he's said is anything like as rude as the sentiments expressed in her posts. Which obv she hasn't actually sent, but I am still shocked and depressed that an academic could hold those views of their students - who after all, pay her wages.

It is so common, in many jobs, to think the job would be fine if it wasn't for the service user. And it's not acceptable.

Again, how many times do we have to say this: students do not pay academics' salaries. Taxpayers do, still.

Look, do you call Social Services when a poster on here posts about how much they are hating their toddler at the moment? No, I don't suppose you do. Because you know they are letting off steam. Think about it.

They have learned to perform 'confused' and helpless rather than to take responsibility for their own learning.

This isn't an opportunity to please my 'customers'.

^^ This!!

I wonder how many supportive comments are coming from people within academia, and how many of the 'your attitiude stinks' are coming from those outside it....

If I had a quid for every student who spent hours writing a long, hand-wringing email (and I'm also talking about mature students, in professional roles here) rather than take on board simple feedback, tied in to course materials and mark schemes, I would be bloody rich!

I would definitely point him back to the marking criteria - I was astounded by a rough survey of my third year students recently which revealed only 1/10 of them had ever read the criteria. These are the same criteria on which every piece of their work since first year has been marked - and so really shows them exactly why they're getting the marks they are! If he is still "baffled" then I'd offer the meeting to explain - but as others have suggested, keep on top of being the one offering the explaining rather than letting it get into his explaining why your marking is wrong - as Nimble has said, there is a bit of a risk in the way he's phrased it so far that the latter is what he's actually aiming to do.

Am loving the comments about rude students learning how to address their betters. "The entitled rudeness some of them adopt to their seniors".

I am a professionally qualified member of a university's staff having spent many years in the City. I have never come across a ruder, more entitled bunch of people than some academics. The rudeness, especially to junior staff that I see almost daily, the number of entry level staff I have seen reduced to tears, is unspeakable. Some academics actually need to be a little more mindful of how they address members of their own communities.

The climate has changed and whilst some academics may be experts and may be bringing in huge bids, many are not. The one constant however is that all students are now paying fees and are covered by the Consumer Act whether academics like it or not.

Funnily enough the DVC where I work tends to know who the poor colleagues and rude academics are and there's an extraordinary correlation with less than exceptional performance.

There also the not insignificant fact that teaching your little darling is not even the majority of most academic job roles.

Students don't pay academics' wages! If that's the message you are giving your DS, then you will be poisoning his experience at university.

OP: I suggest you email back that the reason for both marks is clearly explained in the extensive feedback he has already received, but that if he requires further clarification you will meet him next Monday morning at 9am.

The thing is op you clearly do give a fuck about his bafflement, hence the thread. In the time that you devoted to this thread you could have sent him an email, even if it was just to say I'm not sure what resolution you're hoping for, please clarify.

It's not really about you not knowing what to do next though is it. You're intelligent and we'll educated - you can work out how to respond to a mildly vexing email.

It's more to do with being annoyed about hierarchy and feeling that your expertise is being challenged.

Surely in academia experts need to be okay with being challenged. Even by lowly, and evidently annoying, students.

NimbleJumper As I said they may well be.

However, as the climate in schools is changing (long gone are the days when I could write A+ well done on an essay) so, students are going to expect more at University. I don't think it is just the fees at all, I think we are all being required to be more open and focussed on THEIR needs. Perhaps because they are special fee paying snowflakes. But also, perhaps, because we too needed to change.

Also, as a teacher, I have to say I slightly resent the rather snippy tone from academics (who are also teachers, if only some of the time) that suggests they are somehow too good to be expected to teach and that their global status makes them somehow above providing something a student requests.

And, yes, his tone was bolshy. And he is being rude. Agreed. But.....

Actually, people in the world of work can and do sent slightly rude emails (which I still don't really think this one is, there was no insult, he just expressed confusion). And, people send emails any time they please, that is why they are a v useful way to communicate - the recipient has the choice of when to read or respond to them. Its silly to blame the sender for the time he sent an email (I'm not sure the OP actually said it was 'out of hours' anyway.
In the world of work, some people question your opinion, even when you are an expert in your field, it happens all the time. You may inwardly feel that they have a cheek, but what you do is helpfully explain the facts (or go thru them, if you already provided them). Some are customers, some are new starters in the workplace, either way, the experts job is to provide expertise and clear explanation of the reasoning, until they are able to understand. Even if you think they are dim, or arrogant, or that your time is more valuable. That is what we are paid for. It isn't about what ought to be necessary and whether the info is there if they spent longer looking, its about getting the information across and understood and if that I voices some talking through, then that's what most people do, surely?
Would be interested to know if others really work somewhere where junior staff cannot express confusion and ask for more explanation though, as this seems a widely held belief?