Would you/ how would you respond to this email?

[GameOldBirdz]

Students received their marks on Friday.

They had to do two pieces of work.

Student emailed to say he was "baffled" (his words) by the marks as he'd received a lower mark for the piece of work which was "by far the higher quality piece of work" (his words again)

There's no question in the email so nothing to directly respond to IYSWIM.

Would you respond to this email? If so, what the fuck would you say without using the words "jumped up little tosser"?

I'm leaning towards just not bothering to respond as ultimately I don't give a fuck if he's "baffled"

long gone are the days when I could write A+ well done on an essay) so, students are going to expect more at University

Students already receive extensive feedback in their marks, as explained upthread

Perhaps he needs an overall summary of his extensive feedback? He's been given the really detailed feedback, which is fantastic, but I remember being an undergrad and sometimes the most helpful feedback or advice was the informal stuff such as 'in places you answered the question you wanted it to be instead of the question it was', which wasn't part of the official feedback, but explained why my grade was nudged down from my usual standard.

I think it's understandable that a student who thinks they've submitted one great piece and one ok piece gets a shock if their 'great' piece comes back with a lower mark than their ok piece. I wouldn't take it as him questioning your expertise, but rather admitting that he can't judge if he's done a good job. Perhaps just 10 minutes looking at the making matrix with him and pointing out that he needs to compare his work with that to make sure he hits all the elements, would do wonders?

Six students on a programme funds an additional staff member for a department. That member of staff may bring in a grant or produce 4* research which has an impact on funding but student fees do now have an enormous funding impact.

My DS expects to have taken a first btw and has never taken issue with a marking scheme but there are many instances of poor marking in Universities that are picked up by second markers and exam boards. Some of which warrant disciplinary/performance related action.

Could you not just respond with generic advice, seeing as he hasn't asked anything specific?

Dear Student,
I'm interested to hear you're baffled and feel your worse piece of work was in fact of higher quality. This is a great learning opportunity for you.

I would advise you first to try to articulate what it was about the first piece of work which made you feel it was of a high quality, and what about the second piece made you feel it was worse. Then with this in mind, read the feedback on both pieces of work again.

If you're still unsure when you've done this, I'd be happy to speak to you and clarify (arrangements xyz). It's always a good idea to explain your own thoughts before approaching staff - I can't do much to help unless you explain your reasoning.

I would strongly encourage you to spend some time on this. If you can understand what you did that was better, you will be able to reproduce it in future work.

Ms lecturer

(couched in appropriate academic language - i've only taught maths, and mostly not in English at that!)

And, in terms of being challenged by the more lowly. An cautionary tale. A close relative of mine recently retired as Head of a large, prestigious University department. The relative (.being cautious here about details) had spent some years developing a ground breaking new piece of research which was presented at a conference of academics from around the world. When it was time for questions, the question, apparently, from the front row, from a 20 something, shot a fatal hole in my relative's research. Said relative remained as Head of department, kept the Professorship, but it was all based on work from years earlier.

Said relative then began referring to themselves as a teacher and focussed far more on nurturing talent and less on highlighting previous laurels.

I read that there was extensive feedback, as there may well be. But, I can cover an essay in helpful notes. Make extensive reference to the mark scheme. Some school pupils are still trained to ask for more help if they need it.

That must have an impact on how they behave later on in their education.

Again, how many times do we have to say this: students do not pay academics' salaries. Taxpayers do, still.
Can you explain this? My DCs pay tuition fees out of their student loan, which they'll be paying back for life. Are you saying that non of that money goes to cover lecturers salaries? What is it spent on then?
Even if they aren't paying for the lecturers, you reckon that i, as a taxpayer am, and I would like my DCs to be able to ask for clarification, any time they need it.

Either way, academics are not too special to explain things, really.

However, as the climate in schools is changing (long gone are the days when I could write A+ well done on an essay) so, students are going to expect more at University

You know what Hamlet'sSister ? I have never in almost 30 years of teaching in research-led universities in several countries -- I have never simply written A+ on an essay. I have always given students up to a page of narrative feedback, with language which accords with the marking criteria, which are printed on the feedback sheet, and specific indications of what they did well, and what they need to improve.

In addition, I write lots of marginal notes on the essay itself, in dialogue with my student's essay - I take their work seriously. I wish some of my students would also take their work seriously, instead of just their marks .

If you were in the past able to get by in school teaching by simply giving a grade, well ... it says something about school teaching, but has nothing to do with university teaching in my experience.

HamletsSister but the feedback and support students recieve in the vast majority of cases is very detailed and extensive - they will all have course handbooks, which set out expectations and marks schemes, they will be given their lecturers' office hours and opportunities to meet with them, they will have written feedack on each assignment, and often opportunities to discuss this feedback, they may have a personal tutor assigned to them, who they can approach with a variety of academic and pastoral issues throughout the year.
Added to that are the array of academic and professional skills workshops ans short courses most universities now offer, in addition to careers guidance, counselling services, dedicated subject librarians...

This isn't about lecturers being 'too good to teach' but about modelling and supporting independent and research-based learning practices for students. In any decent university the support and resources open to them is frankly dizzying, but still some students expect it all to come to them.
Often that's just youth and inexperience, but sometimes it's sheer arrogance. I've learnt the hard way you can burn yourself out helping these students, and that by far the better way for everyone concerned is to stop holding their hand and point them towards existing resources whenever possible.

that suggests they are somehow too good to be expected to teach and that their global status makes them somehow above providing something a student requests.

I don't know where in this thread any academic has said or suggested this. I'm a senior professor - I run research grants and I still teach at all levels (1st year to PhD), and also see around 30 personal tutees at least once a term.

Reading is your friend.

I don't really understand the angst over this email. The student got a mark, he's quite upset/baffled by the marking and is querying it, albeit in an indirect way. I would reckon to have a few similar queries/expressions of upset in an average year, not more than that. I don't think it is unreasonable for students to ask for further clarification, and if they write when upset, sometimes the emails demonstrate that.

I'd a) write a short email explaining the main reason one mark was lower/one higher, sometimes we think our feedback is very full and easily understandable, but sometimes it isn't b) reiterate in this email that the marks cannot be changed (as moderated, blah blah and c) if the student wants to come and see you, I'd offer a time in my office hours next week (certainly not Mon at 9, it's not an emergency).

If you treat these emails very straightforwardly and don't react to the emotion in them, I've found the vast majority of students' emotions just dissipate and they then become very receptive to learning how to improve next time. Very few of mine come to face to face follow ups as they usually find that the extra explanations serve the purpose they need (they may also be fishing for a remark, so by making it clear the departmental policy on that, you make things clear for them).

nimblejumper I come across many, many profs who refuse to teach undergrads.

My DS had between 4-6 hours of contact time per week on his undergraduate degree and availed himself of all opportunities to learn, hence the first.

However his school was equally excellent and provided more than 20 hours pw contact time and exceptional facilities.

School fees were £20k including extras in 6th form. Uni fees are 9k. I'm not convinced of the vfm argument to be fair.

Oh, and we have paid his fees btw rather than expect the state to fund them and to commit him to years of uni tax.

Ohthe that doesn't sound great, there is no non-teaching professor/lecturer at my institution (other than those fully funded by external grants). Even the vice-chancellor teaches, he's known for it (probably outed myself). All academics have the same teaching workload.

It was up to you to pay those fees though, they were your child's debt, not yours.

My problem with 'contact hours' is that we offer a very healthy amount of contact with our students, but many, I'd say more than half do not take up the opportunities for contact. I have noticed poor lecture attendance in the second half of the term, no-one coming to my office hours until the week before essays are due even though I am extremely approachable, poor attendance at study skills events. We are putting on more and more, and the students are attending less and less (apart from a few lovely diligent ones who tend to do very well). The difference with school is that they have to be there and they are punished by detention if they do not attend. University depends on students to know they need to attend, and many take this opportunity to be free not to attend. We have attendance lists for lectures, but for the additional very valuable skills/employment/personal tutor type events, students know no-one will call them on it and they don't go! Hence my scepticism about contact hours as parents often don't know the truth of their children's poor attendance.

I have to say our contact hours are a lot more than 4-6 hours a week though, even in a 'softer' (non-science subject).

I'm 'baffled' by your OP. Whatever you think of his email I'd have thought it incumbent on you to help the student understand. Isn't that part of your job?

Actually, that kind of feedback was very common when I was at school (1980s) and much less so by the time I went into teaching. But still there. A colleague (History) and much younger than me had to be trained out of just writing comments like "Really?" at the bottom of essays. These things have taken a long time to be removed from schools.

I am honestly not trying to pick a fight.

But, if students in schools are being taught to ask for more and more help (and getting it) that is bound to affect their later studies.

And you might be different NimbleJumper but this is the Internet. You could be a bricklayer or a dentist. Who knows? But, in my experience, many academics do consider themselves as above the students in all sorts of ways.

Reading. Really?

Snide. Snippy and not necessary at all. Why would I try to read about procedures in Universities? Are they even all the same?

I am too busy giving hours and hours of feedback to my pupils so they can get As and come and torment you lot.

Giving written feedback and getting the recipient to actually read it are two different things.
At school level we are told if students fail it is our fault. No wonder they arrive at uni wanting to be spoon fed.

I don't think a student emailing to say they were baffled by the marks and seeking further clarification is being 'spoon fed'. We tell our students they can come to us to ask for clarification and more information (but not to change marks). Sometimes talking it through makes more sense. They shouldn't be penalised for asking.

I guess it's the manner in which they ask that can be problematic. Many students have a total lack of respect for lecturers (although thankfully not all are like that'

Many emails don't even say hello before plunging into what follows. I'm always happy to be asked but in a polite fashion.

Usually it's quicker just to get them in and have a wee chat with them.

"My students have a really thorough set of assignment-specific grade related criteria and they get feedback in relation to this. "

This is how our marking often works, too. They are handed the mark sheet before they even start the assignment. I write down exactly what they didn't do (that was on the mark sheet) & therefore why their mark got truncated at 3/7 (or whatever). This kind of prescriptive marking is what dominates modern GCSEs, I notice, so the kids should be very familiar with it.

The other way I'll mark is they can get credit for either essential or optional items... I probably wont' give top marks if they don't have the essential items. Beyond that I'll allow a variety of way to get up to the rest of the possible marks (say 7 out of 7 for that question/aspect).

If you think he's a bolshy guy, OP, then mentally prepare yourself for being the most professional unemotionally ruffled lecturer ever in response. Totally reasonable to think you are allowed the weekend, off, btw!

Catkind's draft email is good.

HamletsSister you seem to know very little about academia but have very firm opinions nonetheless. I am a retired philosopher. In my discipline term time essays received extensive feedback as required, with notes on particular points and overall comments. Students also received direct feedback on their ideas in seminars and tutorials as well as having the opportunity to work one to one with supervisors on their research pieces. Exam scripts had fewer comments because most students do not ask for feedback on exam work, detailed feedback on exam work is less useful as the course is over and the pressure of turning over hundreds and hundreds of scripts in a few days makes detailed notes impractical.

The examination process is rigorous. It's not someone randomly assigning marks they never need to defend. Exam scripts are anonymize. They are double marked. First and second examiner meet to deal with discrepancies, they have to defend their marks to each other where there is a large discrepancy and check that overall they are marking consistently. Any unresolved marks or large discrepancies are flagged to the external examiner. In addition the external reads borderline scripts, firsts, fails and a random selection of all other scripts to ensure quality.

If a student, having read the mark descriptors and extensive literature that comes with the course on exam marking, still has questions they can schedule a meeting with the first marker and discuss the marks based on the comments registered by all the markers.

Some students are rude and entitled. It's perfectly fine to ask for clarification of a mark, but it is rude to suggest the examiner could not spot a high quality piece of work when faced with it.

I am a teacher, in a school, as I have stated, repeatedly.

Why would I need to know about academia? But, we send them to you so, surely, the way things are changing in schools is relevant.

I just find the tone of the academics on here a bit sneery.

And I genuinely thought my own experience of changing expectations of schools would be relevant to a discussion about changing expectations after school.

If a student, having read the mark descriptors and extensive literature that comes with the course on exam marking, still has questions they can schedule a meeting with the first marker and discuss the marks based on the comments registered by all the markers
Well yes, something like that sounds appropriate. But either the OPs establishment doesn't have such a system, or the OP appears unaware of it, so it appears your view of academia is not how it is universally, is it?
Such a system would allow the students confusion to be addressed, so it seem the place you worked prior to retiring shared the view of many on here - that such issues should be addressed, through providing guidance until the student better understands.

Hamlets Star why would I need to know about academia?
Because you talk about what students are coming to expect without knowing what is already on offer. One of the universal experiences (yep I will make such a foolish generalisation) of tutors is that students ask for more contact time and nonetheless almost no one turns up to office hours. Just because students complain doesn't always mean they have reason to.

Your cautionary tale is fairly irrelevant as well. My discipline is all about demolishing each other's arguments. If we gave up every time someone proved us wrong Socrates's name would have been long forgotten.

unapaloma I studied in three institutions, worked in another three and external examined for several, such feedback procedure is the norm not the exception. I read the OP as complaining about the tone of the e-mail, which did not even include a request for feedback, rather than the need to give feedback.