Should the UK return to EU free movement?

[EEexpat]

Advantages and disadvantages?

@RedSpotTeaPot

As a trades person would you take your skills, go to another country and start a business if you knew it could all end in three year's time

I have worked on contract since the late 1980s. I would consider three years to be a long contract.

When any kind of security was taken away from these net contributors they all went home and now nobody can get a plumber.

Is answered by:

Nobody can get a plumber because successive governments have failed in their education policy to produce the skills the country needs.

Expansion into Eastern Europe was all about cheap labour and its been detrimental for both the developed Western European economies and the lesser developed Eastern European countries

@GasPanic ”And yes I would go to another country and work if I knew it could end in three years. Millions across the world do it, normally because they get paid more than in their home country for that period.”

Most of my colleagues are Indian National IT workers. They get paid a lot more than in India (though that is rapidly changing) and all love working abroad.
Their employers move them back after 2 to 3 years to prevent them getting a toehold and leaving.
They undercut local salaries by about 40% from what I can work out.

exactly! So free movement is never a good thing for us as we are the country who imports cheap labour but only exports our skilled workers looking for adventure and cultural experiences. No one from the Uk moves for better wages. We are in a lose lose situation

The UK imports huge numbers of well paid, highly skilled labour.

Over a third of NHS doctors are immigrants.

A third of NHS nurses are immigrants.
Over half of City of London bankers are immigrants.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say about skilled workers/adventure/nobody moving from the UK for better wages.

You have worked on a contract, but you haven't started your own business. That was my point. Who would invest in starting a new business without knowing they could stay?

We could get a plumber before they all went home after Brexit.
Successive governments haven't invested in training or encouraged businesses to do so.

Even when governments do invest in savings British people do not want to work in the trades. About 50% of plumbers drop out during training and do not complete their apprenticehips.

Yes

Absolutely not. That is our trump card in negotiations to rejoin the EU because the EU countries really want it. We need it as a bargaining chip.

If we just offer it then try and rejoin they’ll absolutely screw us to the wall on the cost to rejoin and maybe even try to make us join the euro. It’ll be a much less fair negotiation.

And think of all the migrants France and Spain will be bussing over to us. Nightmare.

absolutely not, that means that EU nations can claim benefits and we have enough people doing that already.

@RedSpotTeaPot

You have worked on a contract, but you haven't started your own business.

Wrong. I started my own limited company in the late 1980s. I work as consultant and have worked in many countries around the world.

We could get a plumber before they all went home after Brexit.

We could get plumbers and other trades people before we joined the EU.

1. why? We should be creating our own highly skilled labour. It is massive policy failing that we have to do this.
2. when we do this we are depriving those countries of the highly skilled about they trained up. Personally I am appalled when we brag about how this is good thing when we take the doctors and nurses, particularly from countries that desperately need them.
3. most EU labour that came here were manual skilled labourers. They easily undercut the uk workers and no one bothered to train anyone other as they didn’t need to. It was a massive policy failing and completely let down the younger generation.

It's all Harry Enfield's fault. His loadsamoney character pissed Tony Blair off and led to Blair's government allowing the Polish plumbers and carpenters in 5 years earlier than he had to. The backlash led us to Brexit. The Blair's like many of their new labour MPS owned buy-to-lets. AI puts their portfolio at 27 flats. They couldn't believe how much they had to pay tradies to renovate their property portfolios, so decided to fuck over the British Tradies.

I never thought freedom of movement was the hill toddy on in Brexit negotiations. The EU only technically has freedom of movement of labour, not people. We should have stuck to that when we were members of the bloc.

I don't think the UK is as desirable for other Europeans as it was 20 years ago. Consequently, I don't think we would get the highly motivated young work force we got back then. AndI don't trust our government to restrict free movement to workers. I reckon we'd get benefits seekers. So, while in theory I'd be in favour, in practice I reckon it would go badly.

That's the main impact, yes. It's been hard on our relationship with France, especially with the French markets who used to visit regularly with their wares and who we are only now beginning to rebuild connections with. Neither our port nor theirs were set up to handle the border control situation, and while theirs is currently in a better state and much faster to get through than it is our end, upon returning to the island I have been left standing in an hour-long partially outdoor queue with no accessibility concerns factored in or proper infrastructure after getting off the boat. The ports at St Malo don't use the biometric system yet, but I believe they do plan to introduce it.

On a more personal level, my family are one of many we know who have given up their boats in the last couple of years. We have a strong boating community and seafaring culture which has been heavily dependent on being able to pop over to small coastal towns and villages in France. Now you have to fill in online paperwork at least 24 hours beforehand, which makes the weather-dependent crossings often entirely untenable if you just wanted to go over for lunch on a nice day. The same has impacted us in return; while we're lucky to have recovered our tourism from France via the actual ferry services, we're far less connected when it comes to private travel. The visitor's marina can be a sorry sight when it used to be packed full from May until October.

Unfortunately, as far I can see the app is dependent on whether or not countries and ports choose to use it, and completely useless for small villages and coastal towns. If France, and even moreso the two main ports we use, were to take it up then I would be happy to use it! It also doesn't solve our bigger problems regarding French market sellers, nor the wait times and queues the tiny ferry terminal is faced with on our end.

Criminals would love it.
The EU would love it. We would be punished beyond belief.
We would have to have the Euro.
It would make travelling easier.
We would have to accept Freedom of Movement. This has no limits based on square footage of the size of your country.
Globalised industry and Universities would love it. Easier to recruit.
Westminsters responsibility is reduced. Accountability for decisions likewise.
It would not stop the boats. The EU do not administer the Dublin agreement amongst each other. They won’t start it up again for the UK.
The EU has a Parliament but it is the Commission who rule the roost. And nobody in the public can vote them out. Or in.

Of course it should - this also works both ways, it’s actually quite rare to get whole families these days pitching up from EU as the minute they see house prices relative to earnings they realise it’s hard going - far more common to get under30s not needing schooling, will share houses, low healthcare needs- unlike the Tory’s letting in big families because one person was going to work in a care home or NHS etc - and basically to hide the fact Brexit was a nightmare for certain businesses - it’s not just staffing though, it’s investment - the country has made itself uninvestable for many international company’s that involve import/export - the problem with the UK was that we didn’t administer certain rules that were always available, it wasskways freedom of movement for labour or involves income level if retired and working - everywhere else I’ve known has you registering within 7 days etc - not just there willy nilly, EU or not and you usually can’t claim -

My parents voted to remain in 1975. Not because they had noticed any benefits in the 2.5 years UK had been a member, but could not see the benefit of leaving after such a short time of membership. They both voted leave in 2016 for the same reason you and others have said. The EEC was meant to be a trading bloc, not a political union.

@EEexpat Likewise! My first vote in 1975 was in that referendum. I would vote again tomorrow in favour of a trade bloc, but not for political union. There should have been a referendum in 1991/92 after Maastricht.

And like you, I and most of our close friends have been migrant workers, employed overseas on fixed term contracts. We all took the experience in our 20s and earned tax-free salaries, and saved money to start our own businesses (or got senior jobs) when we returned.

Yes, we should rejoin the single market and a condition of this is free movement.

You can’t have free movement of goods without free movement of people, as it creates a position where poorer nations will always have massive trade surpluses.

Things like second homes etc are irrelevant to 95% of the population. I often think those that bring it up are trying to discourage free movement.

We didn’t have to accept the mass immigration we had under Blair and it wouldn’t be repeated. The EU nations have significantly converged economically and there is no longer the incentive for the Eastern Europeans to come here en masse. There are new poor countries applying to join, but that is a long way off and they would not be given free movement initially.

Also, we would join the European asylum scheme where we would only need to accept out fair share of asylum seekers. At the moment we get far more.

There are few rational arguments against freedom of movement with our biggest trading partner.

Also if people say well look at Australia- Australia does not have 27 countries on their doorstep at a similar level competing for investment - and therefore it makes more sense for businesses to set up small scale just for Australian market - they are also hugely dependent on China. If we didn’t have the EU literally on our doorstep then yes there is more of a question to be answered , but the fact is we do . The US never sees the point of it but that is because they are effectively their own EU and their market on its own is sufficient for inward investment - it’s the equivalent of Georgia saying it’s not going to be part of the USA anymore - see how far it gets!

Then we need to do something about it in the long term. We could start by not sending so many not academically bright youngsters to university to do useless degrees that are not need but are there to keep a huge ( failing) industry going. Who needs a degree in surfing, circus or puppetry ? absolutely nobody but we need Plumbers, electricians, roofers etc We are failing our youngsters by pedalling worthless degrees that leave them in tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt around their necks for decades.University for the vast majority is a sham and it allows our youngsters to stay school children instead of being the adults they should be the time they are 20.

Merkel encouraged FOM. It was good for employers. Which kept them off her phone and out of her hair.
She was not remotely interested in any impact on the general public of anywhere.
Some in countries outside of the EU seek to become citizens of a member state. A holy grail. For countries that have grinding poverty and perhaps conscription.
The Eastern Europeans will not come here. But others will seek to do so. Many EU countries have calls for borders to be returned. Because they are concerned about migration in large numbers from countries elsewhere. FOM is almost a non border.
I am certain we would be expected to take our fair share. Whether it would be fair or not would not be for us to decide.
We did have trade before. Countries did not automatically belong to a thing called the EU. It hasn’t always existed. And countries traded for centuries.
A joined up EU is essential for crime and for defence. It is essential that EU countries trade with one another. We want their things. They want ours.

I think it’s changing anyway, upcoming elections in France and Spain. Unrest is growing in various EU countries. It’s not as it was in 2016.

On the topic of trades, I agree that we should train people. Why not ? Why ever not ?
Globalised industries and companies do not care where the staff come from. They often have little loyalty to any particular country. But we can set the rules by which any people are recruited.
When the Polish plumbers came everyone wanted one.
High standards, under budget and delivery before deadline. Often. That is what people want.

Yep get young people here in work, I don’t see why it’s seen as better to not do that.

Farm labour is long hours for poor pay, bit like care work. Thats why they can't get the workers. Also they require people to 'live in'(aka caravan) which means no one wants to go and live in a field temporarily whilst paying for rent in their other accommodation, so again pay them properly and make it appealing