Should the UK return to EU free movement?

[EEexpat]

Advantages and disadvantages?

I would like freedom to travel for extended periods of time in Europe when i retire. My DD18 will use up her visa free time in Europe during her GAP year and she would like to be able to travel more. I think free movement of goods, services and people is better for the economy and would therefore be better for the UK. I also hate the 3rd country line when I go on holiday.

I am a fan of the European project more widely, joint legislation when dealing with incredibly powerful companies and individuals makes us better able to protect ordinary people and the environment. It’s not perfect, but the least worst solution to globalisation.

@LowlandLucky

So why on earth OP do you think we should rejoin?

The question was not whether the UK should rejoin the EU as that’s on another thread, but whether the UK should return to free movement. It’s not essential to be a full member of the EU to have freedom of movement of people.

FoM just puts a lid on salaries, and pressure on services.
There is a reason we are in a CoL crisis.
It’s because of wage stagnation, partially because of an abundance of cheap labour.

We joined the Common Market in 1973 and I remember it well although I wasn't old enough to vote. Both my parents voted yes, largely because they believed it was the best way of keeping an eye on Germany and preventing another war.

But over time the Common Market morphed into the monolith that is the European Union, which was never what we originally signed up for. A return to a Common Market style arrangement could be worth considering, maybe?

What about all the people that came in that weren't net contributors ?

AFAICT the government didn't even know how many people came in, let alone what jobs they were doing, so how can they compile the stats ?

Why can't the government offer a 3 year construction visa if they are so vital to the economy rather than just relax controls completely across the board ?

People don't really care until that wage stagnation hits them and screws their quality of life. And even then, they often can't link it.

Until it does it's all about waiting in passport queues.

Very few people actually join the dots.

I wonder what a twin combination of FOM and AI would do to wage pressures.

Funny that seeing that Albania is neither in EU nor Schengen

Surely any decision needs to take into account what AI is going to do to the workforce. It wasn’t a factor in 2016 but will be.

Yes, of course free movement between the U.K. & EU should be reinstated. European people should be welcome in our country, and we should be welcome in theirs.

If this were combined with removing indefinite leave to remain & introducing financial incentives for the voluntary mass repatriation of millions of non-EU migrants who have come to the U.K. since Brexit, that would massively improve social cohesion in this country.

It is much less likely that there would be another mass influx of EU citizens as countries like Poland are now much richer than they were back in 2005 when they first got free movement.

@KatiePricesKnickers

Some reports say stagnant wages began in 2008 after the financial crisis. That maybe true, but it’s also worth remembering that UK lifted the cap on Eastern European workers entering the UK in 2006.

I was working in Bulgaria at the same. Some of the local engineers were having orgasm over being offered £25K per year for work in central London. I told them all that whilst £25K would be considered huge if paid in Bulgaria, but it was peanuts for London. I was saying no to £30K in 1993.

@bardabunga

But over time the Common Market morphed into the monolith that is the European Union, which was never what we originally signed up for. A return to a Common Market style arrangement could be worth considering, maybe?

This point came up several times on the other thread about how people would vote if there was another referendum on EU membership.

My parents voted to remain in 1975. Not because they had noticed any benefits in the 2.5 years UK had been a member, but could not see the benefit of leaving after such a short time of membership. They both voted leave in 2016 for the same reason you and others have said. The EEC was meant to be a trading bloc, not a political union.

To be fair AI isn't coming for electricians and care workers.

It's coming for the middle class pen pushers and anyone who spends their life entirely on a PC.

Probably the demographic that didn't suffer the worst consequencs as a result of the first wave of FOM.

This. Free movement under the last Labour government was the beginning of the downfall for the UK. I have said this many times on here that free movement only works if all countries involved have the same standard of living. We don't need more people here, we can't cope at the moment. Look at the state of schools, hospitals, the NHS, housing, our water companies etc.

We should have free movement of goods but free movement of people needs to be carefully thought out. I think there should be skilled worker visas only and no recourse to public funds ie; housing and benefits or make a qualifying period like 5 years.

Well it would ease up the year long wait for Irish register of foreign births!

EU immigrants in the UK were and continue to be net contributors to public finances, paying more in taxes than they receive in benefits and public services.

As a trades person would you take your skills, go to another country and start a business if you knew it could all end in three year's time? When any kind of security was taken away from these net contributors they all went home and now nobody can get a plumber.

When we talk about encouraging British people to work in care some people say “you wouldn’t want your granny cared for by someone that didn’t want to do the job”. This completely ignores the fact that people do not come to Britain to work in care. They work in care in order to come to Britain. When they are granted indefinite leave to remain and the right to work for any employer the men particularly are going to leave care when they can for better paid and more highly regarded work. Getting people to come from abroad to work in care who will leave care in 5-10 years is trying to constantly fill a sieve. You need to bring in more and more people to replace the people leaving. It’s not sustainable.

Good point

why aren’t these trades people starting businesses in their own countries? surely their countries need tradespeople too?

If the government doesn't even know how many people came in what jobs they are doing and what their age distribution/public service requirements are how can they possibly know they are a net benefit ?

People returning to their home country after Brexit kind of proves the point that giving them right to remain was pointless and not an incentive.

All that FOM downside that we took to apparently get them here was worthless.

And yes I would go to another country and work if I knew it could end in three years. Millions across the world do it, normally because they get paid more than in their home country for that period. In fact I think the classic MO was to come over here, start a Ltd company, get paid via that and then leg it before the tax became due.

Nobody can get a plumber because successive governments have failed in their education policy to produce the skills the country needs.

Why would EU free movement mean less immigration from other parts of the world?

Most British tradesmen are not going to work in the EU. Let’s fast forward to the real world. They need to speak foreign languages fluently.

I was thinking more of EU workers coming here where we need them.

EU workers went home because of a variety of reasons e.g. increased bureaucracy, they didn't feel welcome after Brexit, uncertainty about whether they'd have the right to remain at the end of the transition, worsening economic climate and also Covid at the end of the transition period,

Most EU workers didn't return without paying tax as most were PAYE so taxed at source.

You might go to another country to work - but would you invest in starting a business if your right to remain was limited/uncertain?

You're right about failure to provide education - but nearly half of all trade apprentices fail to complete their course. Nearly half of people who start training in the UK drop out when they realise what it entails. I don't now how a government solves that.

They can earn more money here than in their home country.
The same reason much immigration has occurred everywhere for all time.

@Winter2020 “This completely ignores the fact that people do not come to Britain to work in care. They work in care in order to come to Britain. When they are granted indefinite leave to remain and the right to work for any employer the men particularly are going to leave care when they can for better paid and more highly regarded work.”

There was a Nigerian lady on LBC (complaining about how unfair it would be if ILR was changed to 10 years) who said her sister was a qualified chartered accountant in Nigeria and came to work as a carer, fully expecting to get ILR after 5 years.
No guessing what an obviously well educated person will do as soon as the ILR comes through the letterbox.