Would you vote to Rejoin the EU if there was another referendum? - Part 2

[EEexpat]

Advantages and disadvantages?

Yep. In a heartbeat.

No I would not want to rejoin as there is some serious issues in the EU at the moment, politically, economically and lots of protests and riots.

Plus we were unhappy with the set up we had and all those issues will still be there (like if you return to an ex partner and it might take a week or two, but you remember why you left in the first place) and people say we will get an even worse deal this time and pay billions more. Why accept a worse deal and pay billions more for it? Does not make sense at all.

It’s interesting that many who are opposed or have doubts about re-joining give their reasons, largely that we don’t know the conditions, but that they’d likely be worse than when we left, and Europe is in a different place ten years on. But the rejoiners seem to all just say “yes, definitely”.

It’s as if the re-join view is an article of faith, blind devotion, not a decision to be weighed. I suspect that alienates a lot of otherwise undecided people.

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack

Are you suggesting that all 498 MPs who voted to trigger article 50 did so because they wanted the UK to leave the EU, and that none of them voted to trigger it simply because of the referendum result?

Why each of the 612 MPs who voted in 29 March 2017 can’t be known. However, their names are known. So, you could always email them

That the vote was not unanimous in favour of leave suggests to me that the referendum was not considered binding. What happened between the 2017 and 2019 general elections supports that even more.

Also remember that the vote in the 2017 general election was 42% conservative and 40% labour. The two parties that pledged to support exit from the EU. 82%?of 650 is 533. Slightly more than the 498 MPs who voted to leave.

The referendum was not legally binding, but many MPs felt that there was a moral obligation to implement the outcome, despite believing that it would be an act of national self harm to do so.

I don't need to write to them to ask about their positions. It is a matter of public record that many of those who voted to trigger article 50 had campaigned to remain in the EU.

We elect MPs to consider national and international issues.

The bigger question is did those members of the public, mislead by overly rich former public school boys, many of whom have never had a proper job, have sufficient detailed knowledge of the detail to vote? It was not just a case of soundbites.

One of the big challenges for Burnham on any attempt to reverse brexit is that the playing field might have moved massively since 2016. By next year there’s a real chance that many EU countries might have moved away from the friendly centre-ist ground that he’s trying to occupy. France, Italy, Poland, Spain could all have moved to the right, and Germany is under pressure as well. Though I don’t think their elections are until 2029. So it might not be the friendly bunch across the table that we had leading up to the 2016 vote. If nothing else, the French could just say ‘non’ as they have in the past. However, France has run out of money so it might like the UK to chip in and foot part of the bill…

EU politicians just seem to be more serious than Burnham. They won’t care about Manchester, or cheap busses. They won’t care about growth in every postcode, or that he feels your pain when he fills his car up with petrol. They won’t fall for cheap words. They’ll want water tight commitments, clear plans and defined actions. Plus money. He’ll be taken apart in any negotiation!

I voted remain back in the day, and assuming that I’m allowed to vote should the electorate have another say (I don’t live in the UK any more) I genuinely don’t know which way I’d vote in 2027/8/9. The world and Europe have moved on. But is suspect no one will get a vote…

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack

It is a matter of public record that many of those who voted to trigger article 50 had campaigned to remain in the EU.

Please provide a link for that record. If it provides the names of the remain campaigning MPs who later voted to trigger article 50, you will have found your list of people to blame.

@StarlightLady

We elect MPs to consider national and international issues.

I thought people voted for their MPs locally based on what they could deliver to their constituents?

many of whom have never had a proper job, have sufficient detailed knowledge of the detail to vote?

33.4 million people took part in the 2016 referendum. How can it be known that many of them never had a “proper job”?

Regards sufficient detailed knowledge to vote, Remain Campaign sent a booklet to every household in the UK which detailed why they thought remaining in the EU was best for the UK.

The only qualification to vote is to be on the electoral register and take the time to vote. I was not aware of any vetting process to determine whether or not people had sufficient knowledge or a proper job to determine whether they had the right to vote.

Out of curiosity, what is considered to be a proper job?

Yes, l concede local matters but MPs are there to vote on wider issues as well. I was trying to be brief.

l was referring to the former public schoolboys who had no interest in what is best for working people and, in particular, working women.

Farage, former MEP who rarely turned up in the European Parliament, who dabbled with other people’s money for a living (give or take a few million) has never had a proper job, and has had to change his party’s name 3 times.

OK, the remain campaign was rubbish, but how many people voting leave understood what they were voting for?

I think lots of the Labour voters, including those, in what because the ‘red wall’ seats, as well as conservative voters knew exactly what they were voting for when they voted leave. They were voting for higher wages. And if you look at how wages have increased for many trades (builders, plumbers, electricians, plasterers, decorators), as well as the post brexit bounce in wages for shop and warehouse workers as well as lorry drivers, they got what they wanted…. Now, none of that helped the middle classes…. For the rest of us / you it became a bit harder to travel, and a bit more complicated to move to and work in the EU. But the average plumber wasn’t going to do that anyway!

Exactly this!

I'm sure most people understood; either stay in the EU or Leave.
Remain got very complacent and the campaign was terrible. Many young people didn't bother to vote. A lot of people didn't like being undercut by cheap labour.

You have a very good point.

The whole of Europe is poorer- look at what is happening in France. Spain have problems too as do other members
Brexit hasn't caused that.
People have short memories about why we left
Bankrolling the poorer members.
No say in immigration numbers.
British court rulings being overturned.
I'm not saying things post Brexit have been good, but I have never felt that out ruling politicians, either Tory or Labour have had any real interest in delivering Brexit properly.
It about time politicians worked to deliver the verdict of the electorate rather than proposing further referendums until they get the results they want.

I can see the EU becoming a much looser alliance in due course. Too many countries are going ahead and doing their own thing anyway, e.g. Poland, Denmark and the likes in relation to immigration rules. I'm not sure if Hungary is still a maverick like it was under Orban, but I suppose it still is.

The whole EU has become a monolithic mess of bureaucracy. I doubt that many EU voters even know who their MEP is!

I can see an alliance on three things eventually, Security, Trade/Customs Union, Free movement, but with much stricter immigration policies. That has to happen whether you are in favour of increased migration or not. It's unsustainable now, it was too much far too quickly, all led by Angela Merkel who doesn't care now!

I am no political scientist, nor do I know an awful lot about EU, but those are my thoughts looking to the future.

Do most people in the UK know who their UK MP is? Doubt it. But if you can disprove this one, l’ll bow to that.

This is why people shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Yes, I would like to be in the EU again. The problem is that we probably won't get the deal we had before which was the BEST in the EU which is a shame

I would definitely want free trade and free movement of labour with the option to remove people should they not secure employment - this could have implemented pre leaving the EU.

To everyone saying 'Brexit wasn't implemented' - it was never going to be implemented as there was no plan - just bull shit slogans and rhetoric. That's why it's been a complete and utter failure and made the vast majority of people poorer

Also all the old 'leave' voters that have died since the referendum have now been overtaken by people now old enough to vote.

According to statistical modeling by political analyst Peter Kellner, that crossover date occurred on January 19, 2019.
Because older voters predominantly backed Leave while younger voters favored Remain, natural demographic shifts created a theoretical Remain majority on that day, assuming no individual voters changed their minds.

Yes, they may well have changed their minds, looking at a lot of European problems now. Who knows.

When the Brexit vote happened, I was the Form Tutor for a yr13 group. They were given information and had a lot of opportunities for discussion beforehand as many of them were already 18. They were reminded to register to vote.
When I got into school the morning after the vote, the atmosphere was terrible, there was anger and despair. Some of them blamed "older people" who they said didn't care about them. Looking at it more closely? Only 2 of them had bothered to vote. Why hadn't the others?
"We thought Remain would win".
I keep hoping that this was a lesson in democracy for them.

What did they lose? Brits are notoriously bad at foreign languages. Where were they going to go with their grade 4 GCSE French?

They were just very angry. They all seemed to think that the EU was some sort of socialist paradise. They couldn't countenance the vote being Leave.

@RaggedRocks They lost free movement of labour and free trade.
I lived and worked in the EU twice in my 20s. It was bloody brilliant, a really fantastic time in my life. It saddens me that my DC won't get to experience this.

Also we all lost free trade. Nigel Farage bleating on about how our exports have increased since Brexit fails to mention that this comes nowhere near making up for the extra costs and lost trade with our closest land mass. It's so so sad.

@Pipsquiggle ”and free movement of labour with the option to remove people should they not secure employment”

This country would never start deporting EU citizens just because they are unemployed.
And being in the UK on benefits and working illegally is better than living in rural Hungary or Romania.