Who is English?

[mids2019]

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

I mean since coming back to the UK.

It's pitiful the lengths the British State has gone to, to undermine English identity, including arrests by the police and it explains the current backlash. I insist that there was a deliberate attempt by the powers that be to undermine English identity sometime during the nineties and has led to a backlash. The undermining was aimed to ridicule Englishness and focus on the harms of the Empire most of which normal English people had nothing to do with.

When I was teaching in Brighton in the seventies, there were pupils with the name Gunn that went back a long way. To say they are "mongrels" or don't have a heritage is ridiculous and I would say racist against those English people. Why aren't they allowed to celebrate their heritage?

I agree with you but you wonder why and the purpose. Only country in the word where you’re not allowed to celebrate you Englishness! Every other county is patriotic and celebrate their traditions
and customs but there so a sinister underlying theme where that’s not allowed here or you’re somehow racist. Utterly pathetic

Sorry, what are the traditions that you're not allowed to celebrate?

You must have not noticed that smearing English identity has been going on for a ..while. It's perfectlly acceptable to call white English people "gammon" and laugh about it, whereas if you call Irish people potato eaters it's not. I remember being called a potato eater back in the day. I don't see why calling English folk gammon is any more acceptable but "progressive" folk think it's funny.

I've seen a lot of gammon references and lefties literally choking with laughter over it.

I've never heard that "gammon" was an insult for English men in particular tbh.

"Gammon" are the inferior working class commoners who don't understand what is good for them.

Actually. I asked which traditions you weren't allowed to celebrate so I have no idea how you got onto an insult for white men.

What has this got to do with my question about traditions?

Being born in England x

I'm not hiding from anything, nor am I blaming anyone else for anything. The past was the past and whilst everyone acknowledges that, I have no reason to feel personally responsible for any of it. None of it was my fault so why should I accept blame for it?

Rather meaningless I would say.

France is full of people with roots in Italy, Belgium, Germany and so on and people who have relatives who came from former French colonies.

I think many of us are a mix these days.

We are talking about people who are born in England though and have different backgrounds and who upset the Reform brigade if they consider themselves English.

Your example is totally different.

What are you not able to celebrate?

I love being Scottish. I have Irish ancestors. So I love that part of me too. Just enjoy being English. I have family born and bred in England. They are as happy as Larry. Why all the angst?

Who cares what other people think?

I've lived in Wales for a long time but born in England, I think if myself as English.

Sorry, it's nothing to do with class. When I hear "gammon", the first thing I think of is Conservative, male MP's of a certain age.

Hey, no it's definitely true that humans just have fundamental differences in how they want to live. You know how there seem to be a lot of people out there who think it's fine to marry and have sex with children? And in some countries it is legal whereas we managed to get enough of those sorts out of influence in other countries to be able to make it illegal? Well, not in some states in the USA. Child marriages still happening over there. And I don't mean age 16.

Anyway.

I don't want employers to have to recognise religious holidays. I don't want to see churches anywhere. I don't want religion to have any bearing whatsoever on scientific / medical decisions or advances. I don't want to have to learn about or tolerate people's fantasies. But what you do or teach about in your own home is your business.

I was born and brought up in Wales, parents and grandparents Welsh at least 4 generations. Have lived in England since the age of 18.

I’m still Welsh. But that’s because that’s how I choose to define myself. Actually, my primary sense of identity is British….. the best way to guarantee me claiming my Welsh identity is to go on about being English, because that instantly makes me different.

At the same time, if I wanted to describe myself as English, I defy anybody’s right to say otherwise given I have lived here for over 40 years. I have lived in several different regions of England, and the cultural differences between them are just as noticeable, and insignificant, as those between England and Wales.

This is somewhat different from an actual legal nationality. If I had lived in France for 40 years, that would not in itself make me French. But having acquired French citizenship, would. Even if I spoke French with an appalling accent.

Its a racist term as it refers to an angry red faced necessarily white man.

I’m an atheist, personally I have no time for religion of any description but I do believe if we want a tolerant society and I do then we need to understand other people beliefs/fantasies. It’s always good to understand why people think the way they do. That doesn’t mean I agree with it but it helps us to understand.
To remove churches i.e. the buildings in many cases would be an absolute outrage, not because they are places where God is worshiped but because of their sheer beauty, no one can go to say to Lincoln Cathedral and not be awe inspired by it beauty. Just the craftsmanship alone is incredibly. So many of our most important works of art were created because of religion you don’t for example have to believe in any God to be moved by the Pieta; a mother mourning the loss of her son. I as an atheist love Handel’s Messiah to he music is so beautiful.

Most people think of white English working class males who are labourers and, therefore, "coarse" except when they need a plumbing or repair job done in their home.

To me 'Gammon' usually refers to the right-wing, intolerant, Farage-loving, Brexit-supporting, middle-aged white men.

Nothing to do with 'class' or not a criticism of Englishness in general...