Why are English flats so shit?

[OneMentalBastard]

For a fairly populous country short on space, you'd think one thing we could get right is apartments. But, there are problems at every turn. The entire ownership model is all to cock, for starters. Freehold, management company charges, restrictive covenants on self employed/small business owners - all completely patrician and feudal.

Then there's the design of the damn things. Quite aside from deathly cladding, half of them don't have balconies and precious little outside space, so you're just shut in a box. The new ones don't even have bloody walls - who the fuck wants open plan living? Apart from those 23 year old wankers at Foxtons whose only possessions are a futon and a smart speaker? Where is a person supposed to put their bookcases, in a flat with no walls? Who wants their washing to smell of cooking? (Which it will, in a flat with no balcony, no walls and no space in the "kitchen" (aka a lino floored corner of the living room with a sink and two cupboards) for a separate tumble dryer.)

And what's with this "low car/no car" development craze? Our public transport outside of London is shit. Anyone with a job or any kind of regular commitment (ie most adults) is going to have a car. If they can't park it outside their flat they're just going to rack up council charges to park it elsewhere.

Apartment living should be, and in other countries is, the smart choice for people who want a hassle free low maintenance urban life, but instead it's an almost sure path to penury, inconvenience and tripping over stew-scented clothes horses in the living room.

Why can't we get it right?

Not in Brighton. They convert by putting the kitchen/ sitting/ dining all in one small space and turn what would have been the kitchen into a bedroom. Honestly 10x 12 Crazy. I guess the only thing is you could stir the food whilst spinning the washing whilst watching your TV which is probably wall mounted at such an awkward angle you have to do a yoga pose to watch it.

I don't think mansion blocks were built for ordinary people! My understanding is that they were built for the more wealthy as pied a terre IN town. The flats that were built for the less well off were more like the Peabody Trust buildings you still see in London - solid and well built but nowhere near as spacious and elegant.

I think public transport should be much better so people wouldn't need cars so much.

So do I but it isn't, so in the meantime, if people want to work, visit more than one or two places at once or get out and about beyond urban centres a car tends to be necessary or at the very least, is much more practical.

I’ve much preferred living (renting) in converted flats in Victorian buildings than in newer flats in England for the reasons mentioned. There is also more soundproofing in the coverted flats (generally). My mum is to trying to persuade me to buy a flat in the moderately expensive city I live in but I’m planning on buying a small freehold house further out, the lack of no outdoor space in most flats being a big factor in this decision.

“Shut in a box” - you nailed it.

Because flats are seen as starter homes. Live in them for two years, gain a little equity while being childless and out partying most weekends, then sell and buy a house with enough outside space for two chairs, a barbecue & a rotary washing line.

I rented a 1970s flat for a year, after I left ds' dad. Me and a 2yo in a 2nd floor, purpose built, one bed flat. It was just bearable - a decent sitting room looking out onto green space, separate, kitchen, small double bedroom and reasonable storage. Enough communal parking.

But it had no lift so I carried ds & shopping up stairs for a year. No balcony. It wasn't fun.

As soon as I could, I bought a house in a rural location, with a large garden, plenty of woods and fields to walk in. I am not good at living in flats. Or towns. I need a garden and clean air.

That is true but even with excellent public transport, there are many reasons why families might need at least one car.

This is of topic but the rewriting of history annoys me.

Scotland and England unified because of the Acts of Union, not colonialism. The Act happened, ironically, because of a failed Scottish attempt to do colonialism in the Darrian Gap which bankrupted the country. If it were not for the mosquitos there Scotland might well be independent. But as it is the AoU was voted for by the Scottish Parliament at the time. It was not imposed by force as in Ireland or India. After the AoU Scotland and England, as a single entity, engaged in colonialism and the slave trade. Many Scottish people owned slaves, served overseas in positions of power within the British Empire. After London Glasgow was the second city of the empire.

Scottish people were oppressed. By wealthy landowners and business owners most of them also Scottish. The Highland clearances was a tale of landowners, most of them clan chiefs exploiting the lack of protection for clan members to kick them of their farms. It was terrible. But it's a story of class solidarity (among the wealthy) not colonialism.

The tenement flats in Glasgow were built to house the working classes including those who were kicked of their land and migrated to cities. They were in Glasgow because Glasgow was a major centre of industry and shipbuilding due to the aforementioned British Empire and that needed people. Colonised countries like India did not become major centres of industry and wealth because that's not how colonialism works.

I am half Scottish by the way so not got a chip on my soldier but if we want to talk about slavery/colonialism I think honesty is important.

To get back on track the reason that older "mansion blocks and tenement flats" in places like London and Glasgow were better built was because they were built at a time when the UK was wealthy due to industrial expansion (and very much colonialism). So people benefitting could build lovely mansion homes for themselves and even though there was greater wealth inequality the money was still there for building solid tenement housing for workers. I still think it's possible to build good quality houses for ordinary people. But it's harder and therefore might require the intervention of the State (as post WW2 when Britain was poor) and even shock horror increased taxes on the very wealthy.

I used to live in a council flat and liked living there, we had two big bedrooms, a massive lounge, good sized kitchen and loads of storage cupboards. We didn't have a separate garden, but there was plenty of outside space with washing lines, and we all had a designated shed for bikes etc.

I think council flats can be nice. The problem is there were a lot of high rise flats built in the sixties which then, crucially, weren't properly maintained or supported with decent infrastructure a couple of decades later. So the community centres inside the buildings shut, lifts were frequently broken, playgrounds weren't maintained, public transport links were inadequate so people were cut of. I don't think it was inevitable that they would become shit places to live but they did and they also became a poster child for "sink estates". I think those high rise council flats are a big part of the reason people are so against flats now (even non high rise ones). "Council flat" now creates a really negative image and it's unfortunate. Grenfell probably didn't help either TBF.

They are generally quite shit
Part of my job is to help my clients find somewhere to live and they usually have pretty nice budgets too but mostly I am quite embarrassed at the flats we visit. They are small and pokey and not great quality in general.
Most of my clients who want a flat only want 1 bedroom but this means 1 bathroom and a tiny lounge/kitchen in one. I have never seen a large 1 bedroom flat. One of my clients has just taken a 3 bedroom flat despite living alone just to get a big lounge and dining kitchen
I think in The UK (outside London) flats are still mostly for young singles or couples who then move move to houses when they have a family

I've lived in some nice flats in Finland, always have decent amounts of storage space (clothes rooms i.e. massive walk in cupboards off the hallway are fairly common, otherwise lots of built in cupboards) plus there's always separate storage space, usually in the basement and doubling as a bomb shelter, and balconies are very common. Every flat I lived in had a balcony, two of them fully glassed and one was massive. All had basement storage and one also had cold storage in the basement (bit like large fridges for each flat, though about 10-15 degrees rather than fridge temp). Two had their own sauna and the other had a communal sauna (pretty much all apartment buildings will at least have a communal sauna that you get a weekly private slot in as well as shared single sex sessions). All were warm, no drafts or issues with damp. None of these were expensive flats either, one was a council flat.

My aunty lives in an apartment building that has a social space you can book for gatherings. These are also common in student apartment buildings (been looking for somewhere for DD). Communal grilling space out in the communal gardens are pretty common too. One block of flats in my town has its own swimming pool on the top floor! Its quite normal to buy a flat and live in it always, especially in cities, so flats are made to be proper homes.

I agree. I lived in a flat for a few years. It did have a separate lounge and kitchen. However there was barely enough room to swing a cat in the kitchen. I had to put my fridge freezer in the storage room as there was only room for a mini fridge in the kitchen.

I lived in an ex local authority flat in central London. It was built in the 50s to the Parker Morrison standards and it was fantastic. Large rooms, large windows.

Fully agree. I lived in Germany where flats are large, well-built, warm and cheap (to rent, not to buy.)

I guess historically only poor people lived in flats and no one stood up to developers and landlords. Our build quality is generally less good than it was in Germany.

Do councils or Government not set minimum standards for flats, like sq m, windows, balcony, storage, bike shed, laundry rooms, etc?

Of course they don't, that would massively interfere with developer profits, and/or increase the price beyond the reach of many.

Should be though.

There are minimum space standards for new flats. Also window and safety standards.
There are fire safety standards to pass for existing flats too.

The old council flats (and houses) were well designed to use space well and be a practical place to live. New flats are designed to go up quickly and cheaply and look pretty in the brochure.

I used to live on the fourth floor of a block of purpose built apartments in Jersey City. Built in the early 20s with two decent bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom and sitting room. Parquet or porcelain tiled floors, built in wardrobes, for $230 per month, heating and hot water included, with a basement and a live in janitor. We also had access to the roof space, and were mostly the only people who used it. And a wonderful view across the Hudson to the World Trade Center. I loved that place.

The new build I lived in in London was nice in the beginning, and then all the faults began to pop up. My friend currently rents a former council flat in London. Much better quality and spacious with actual storage.

Also, she has a separate kitchen. I love her place.

Relatable.

We were on the top floor of three-storey flats with a staircase and no lift. I don't think I would have liked to live in a high-rise flat although a friend of ours did. She was near the top, and in a high wind you could see the water in the toilet bowl moving from side to side.😮

The Scottish property legal system is very different to the English one, much more straightforward. I don't know about Northern Ireland or Wales.
I have lived in a new build flat in Scotland and it was very spacious and comfortable. We didn't have a balcony, didn't want one.

All the flats around my town are student flats or over 65s. Nearly all the old council flats are gone. They were like something built by the Stasi and had problems with the tenants.

lots of new houses being built with some apartment blocks which look nice with balconies but not sure of the space inside.