Any violin teachers about?

[AnnesPuffedSleeves]

Can I ask any violin teachers for advice about teaching my grade 2 child about key signatures? I’m not sure how well I can explain this so apologies in advance.

I learned classical guitar at school. I learned very early the names of notes, what sharps and flats are, and how all of this corresponds to the frets.

My DC is 8 and working towards violin grade 2 (ABRSM). They got 140 for grade 1 so can play quite well I think and are very keen to do more. They are also confident with scales. However, I’ve noticed that when doing sight reading, they don’t seem to have any understanding of what key the piece is in and the impact of the sharps. Rather than learning e.g this is a G# and you put your finger here etc, they’ve learned ‘this is E2’. I’ve taught the names of notes myself but I now realise that if they get a piece in C major (for example) they don’t realise that the middle C natural is a ‘low A2’ not just an A2. Does that make sense?! Sorry if it doesn’t, I don’t play the violin so I find it hard to explain.

So….the question is….what’s the best way to teach them this? Do I teach them to learn each key and look out for L1L2s etc, do I give a finger chart? The teacher is in school and never responds to my emails so I’m at a bit of a loss. I have a really keen child so I’d like to help if I can. Or should I just butt out???? TIA!

I’m a piano teacher and classroom teacher- up to a level. I’m confused- do you mean that instead of reading the notes on the page, for example that’s a C, they know it is the string name plus where to position their finger?
I think it’s pretty poor to not know the key of the piece and associated sharps/ flats to be honest although I wouldn’t say it was uncommon. Just not great/ thoughtful teaching.

@littlecreeature yes, that’s right. They learn the name of the string + the finger position. For example, for an F# they learn it as D2. However, they don’t then realise that this is an F# and when they come across and F, they are just told it’s a ‘low 2’ ie move the finger lower down. This is a city wide music service so I assumed this must be common but I find it really confusing. My DC does now recognise the names of the notes etc because I’ve taught them this, and now realises that sharps are higher and flats lower, but doesn’t understand to look at the key signature and what this means. They can instinctively say, ‘oh that
must be a low 2’ if it doesn’t sound right.
Thanks for replying!

Eeek. Sorry think that’s really pretty poor. Your child has clearly taken well to it to get to grade one at the age they are, the teacher can do better. Is it group lesson or 1:1?
Giving the benefit of the doubt- can they note label and they are actually reading the notes but then translating it to the position on the fingerboard?
I guess to answer your original question you are in an ideal position as a reader yourself to be able to show them at home, I’d buy or print off a fingerboard chart to supplement learning.

You could also look at some of the ABRSM theory books starting with grade one. I’m sure there are a load of apps now as well to support with it.

Your child needs to learn music theory - does the music service offer any theory classes you could enrol her in? Otherwise have a look at the theory books or other similar resources.

It’s a group lesson and there are 6 of them in the group but three different levels (kids who started later). I’ve asked if we could pay for an extra private lesson each week but they don’t have capacity. I’ve been looking for face to face private tuition but haven’t found any one yet. I can’t imagine doing it online at this age.

I’m looking on Amazon now! I stopped guitar at grade 5 as we never did any theory and I really regret that. I’d love them to do some theory but I’m slightly concerned that I can’t explain it (and don’t know it) myself. I know my music service only do it for the grade 5 exam but perhaps I can find something online.

Could you explore private piano? It’s a really great instrument to get to grips with theory and means she can still do violin at school.

Yes, I have wondered that. My only concern is doing double the amount of practice that two instruments requires and whether they’ve got the drive/stamina for that. I love the piano so much - perhaps we should learn together 🤷🏻‍♀️

This is interesting as my child is learning the violin and it was news to me that one note she’s been playing the whole time is an F# but she just seems to have learnt it as a string and one finger and reading the note on the stave .

I noticed the key signature had F# and thought wow they are teaching sharps quick - and then realised after googling. But she didn’t know she was playing a sharp. But she knows what they are as she can play basic piano, she thought it was just an F.

Is this normal? I guess in piano you learn about 5 notes with each hand and then move on but violin has such high and low notes already.

You can get theory books grade by grade and a pocket sized one which explains the theory of all the grades. On Amazon. I got it as I sometimes forget stuff and the theory books do have some explanations but I need to double check myself sometimes.

Not a violin teacher but I play viola.

there’s patterns to the scales on violin.

so she’s learning first position at the moment and the high 2/low 2 covers most scales she’ll need for a while.

so if she plays a major scale on the G string it goes 0,1,high2,3, next string 0, 1, high 2, 3 which gives the F sharp.

sharp scales are generally easier to play than flat scales on violin or viola.

so she’ll have been taught the high 2 first on all strings which gives a b, f sharp, C sharp and g sharp on the strings.

i can’t remember the scales on violin grade 1.

in a group lesson of 6 mixed abilities getting 140 at G1 is an excellent achievement and an indication that your child needs to come out of group lessons and into 1-1 lessons. You've made the right call there.

Where are you looking for tutors? Try the ISM and ESTA websites, and ask around for recommendations. Check google maps.

Beware tutor listing sites - they charge a fortune to the prospective student and often the tutor isn't aware. If you find a good one, try to find them outside of the tutor listing site.

The job of the music service is to offer music to as many children as possible at as low a price as possible while still making £x per hour of teacher time. Their success is measured in number of kids passing exams. So it's not that difficult to scrape a pass at G1-2 learning by rote without any foundational music skills at all.

Parent and kid think they are awesome for their achievements, then they start working towards G3 and it all falls apart because there is no understanding and the pieces are too hard to learn by rote, and at this stage learning to read music properly and understand music is a really hard slog when playing ability significantly beyond reading level.

I'm a piano teacher and I see this all the time in kids coming from the music service or from poor quality private teaching.

It's not the fault of the music service though - private 1-1 lessons are £40-£50 per hour and it takes YEARS to become proficient in an instrument. That is beyond the reach of many families so the music service does offer a valuable service to bring instrumental lessons to kids that otherwise wouldn't have that exposure.

You can make a simple fingering chart with the names of the strings at the top and the names of the notes in each position, so

0,1,low2,high2,3

that’s probably easiest.

the next step is doing the low 1 I think if I remember correctly which gets you some flat scales.

changing position isn’t until higher grades

Ok so looking at the violin grade 1 syllabus the scales are D A G major and E natural minor.

G major needs a combination of high 2 and low 2 over the two octanes but D and A major are just high 2 and I can’t remember E natural minor.

sightreading at grade 1 is only in D or A

grade 2 sight reading is any key she did the scales for in grade 1.

are you giving her sightreading in C or is the teacher? C is actually quite tricky on violin.

Not violin and older children, but I always explained it in terms of tones, half tones, etc. A sharp is half a tone higher, a flat half a tone lower. There are patterns in scales i.e., major = tone, tone, semitone, tone tone tone, semitone. You can also use the key signature on a piece of music to work out what key it is in. Using the last note of a piece can also be a clue. A piece in C major will generally end in a C. However, looking for accidentals and the key signature can clue you in that it may also be in a minor key. Then there are modulations. You can also explain the physics - A vibrates at 440, the next A up at 880. OK, too much for a six year old. Just some thoughts.

I'd start with an 'initial' grade workbook and work from there if you have the theory yourself. They should learn as they go along though.

That’s exactly it. Maybe this is the current way to teach but I find it really strange having learned guitar in what is perhaps the old fashioned way!

That’s a really interesting perspective that makes total sense. I would hate to be a teacher of 6 kids at 3 different levels and for only half an hour. I can see why they don’t get much sense of theory in this instance. It does really make me think that I need to find a good private teacher.

@Jopo12 I was looking for a tutor on places like Super Prof and I also asked on my local area Facebook group of anyone knew anyone but I’ll take a look at those sites now. Thank you.

It was the teacher who gave her a piece in C Major but I’d noticed that it isn’t included in sight reading for Grade 2. I’ve notice that DD realises when she needs (for example) a C natural and not a C# in G major when she plays it and it sounds odd, but she doesn’t look at the start of the piece and anticipate so obviously that’s a problem in sight reading. She never seems to pick up on the low 2/G natural at the top of G major though. I’m not sure how good her ear is actually as she can’t sing very well, though this has actually improved a bit since she joined a school choir. She hates the aural part of the exam for this reason and lost most of her marks for this.

I’m a violin teacher (through a music service and privately), and this is a pet hate of mine, especially when I get a transfer student who is at grade 1, 2 or even higher levels and who only knows notes as A1, D3 or whatever. It’s so time-consuming and demoralising for the child to have to go back and relearn everything, so that they can, as you say, work out if a note is sharp, natural or flat. As PPs have said, I think it happens, especially in group lessons, so that children can appear to make quick progress. It doesn’t just let them down when it comes to preparing for higher grades, it makes it much harder for them to play in any kind of ensemble.

As has also been said, though, 140 at grade 1 is really great, and shows that your child has some real musicality. It’s good that you’ve noticed now that they’re not really reading the pitches of the notes (do you know if they’re reading rhythms?), so that you can focus on helping with this. I agree that private lessons would be a really good idea, and maybe have a chat when choosing a teacher about how they approach this kind of thing. When I’ve had transfer students in this position, I’ve explained to the parents that, in order to make progress, they will need to go back and learn these note names and how they relate to finger positions. Some children/parents aren’t prepared to do this, so it’s better all round that they find a teacher who works with that method, rather than us all being frustrated!

Music teacher here - on the face of it, this isn't good teaching and she does need either some supplementary tuition to ensure her understanding keeps pace, or to be taken out of the group and put in individual lessons. But I have to say I have a lot of sympathy for the teacher, and I have ended up in this situation myself before - group of 4 or 6 mixed-ability kids, mixed levels, one kid practising a little and the others not at all, 30 minutes max for the lesson time, of which 5 mins if not more is taken up in getting them settled at the start, and packing up at the end.... and an expectation that you'll get them to jump whichever hoop exam-wise the LA or school is expecting... teaching tends to have to focus on basic skills and there simply isn't time for explanations and theory, except at a very low level, so you inevitably end up with gaps. You plan to fill these, because you're a good teacher and the gaps worry you, but you then have to leave off your lesson plan because a child turns up with the news that they are playing at Auntie Jill's civil partnership ceremony on Saturday, and could you spare five minutes from the end of the lesson to hear them play 'Pure Imagination'? Which you do, because the five minutes simply can't be squeezed elsewhere and the child will go unprepared if you don't... If it's not Auntie Jill then it's something else. Then you're into preparation for the Harvest Festival performance, preparation for the Christmas Performance, preparation for the Easter performance.... and in the midst of this, the necessary background knowledge gets squeezed out, shunted to next term, then the term after, then the term after that....
We do our best, but we're often working with shockingly poor time allocations and resources. When I'm worried, I always remind myself that in a specialist music school or choir school, the children would have separate weekly lessons for aural, theory, Dalcroze eurythmics or whatever, and the best teachers in these institutions would probably struggle under the conditions those of us in mainstream non-selective state schools teach under...

Absolutely, @AdmiralJaneRoland, it’s really tough, and there’s never enough time!

As a piano player it seems crazy to me. I guess its bizarre coming from the piano where sharps are all the black keys so they stand out so to speak - whereas on the violin its a basic string. And yeah she had no clue she was playing it. I was like oh youre playing a piece in this key already?? And she hadn't even looked at the key signature.

She actually has a new teacher next week. Will be interesting to see what happens, this teacher is extremely accomplished. But the books my child has been using are for beginners and it doesn't mention anything about any of this. Whereas all the piano starter books are full of information about this type of thing? If she hadn't learn some piano I'm not sure she'd have much of a clue about anything! We're at a much earlier stage than you though, so maybe at the moment its just a case of getting her to be able to play some strings nicely.

But I am surprised at Grade 1 this wouldn't have come up.

I can't sing and used to scrape passing piano exams because of this. It would infuriate me because I was there to play the piano! I could hear my voice was coming out wrong but I can't control it. I obviously sound like Mariah in my car haha!

i haven't played my violin for quite a few years and it took me a while to work out what you were even referring to! We definitely learnt the notes from the start as well as the fingering numbers. I can still hear my teacher calling out "B B A Geeeeee"!! I feel like they've used this method as a quick way of learning but its going to back fire pretty quickly!