When will people realise that pensioners have paid for their state pension.

[notsafeanymore]

Every time there is a debate about the cost of living pensioners get a bashing.
And some have also paid for a private pension.
It's people who have never worked that should be targeted first.
I'm not on about the disabled. It's people who are benefit cheats and have never worked.

You are correct. The State Pension is not an automatic right; it is an earned entitlement. It is a contribution-based benefit with qualifying periods and requirements around contribution levels. So Pensioners don't actually need their own "pot".

Have no issue with pensioners as such. But I don't know how many current pensioners truly appreciate the load for people who are currently paying their pension when it's rather dubious that they will be getting one at all at 67/68 or what ever it is by the time they get to retire.

Many (I know not all) pensioners have also had final salary pension schemes that are now long gone. My DF used to marvel how his was more than I was earning for a 4 day week when my DS was small. I appreciate that owning property outright and a final salary pension isn't the position of all pensioners.

My work pension projections are quite dire, having come out of uni in to an era of stagnant wages, having 2 DC and a few health issues post pregnancies that hinder career progression and working full time. Whilst I understand the suggested paying in to a private pension, many people are still paying off student loans, saving for deposits, paying off mortgages etc. I get what people are saying about being responsible but I don't think it's entirely about people going on too many holidays when a lot of families are barely going on holiday at all. Those that have had children are coping with cost of living increases with dependents, and it's entirely unsurprising that younger people have seen this and have rejected those life choices.

The benefits bashing, everyone loves to suggest that there are the deserving and undeserving and make judgements on who those people are. I wouldn't want a life on benefits, it sounds quite difficult in many ways and I'm glad I don't to deal with those systems. If you haven't made NI contributions you won't get full pension and really won't have a lot to live on.

Absolutely typical race to the bottom on this thread. I’ll repeat, British retirees receive roughly 22% of their average pre-retirement earnings from the state, which is the lowest rate among the G7 nations and below the OECD average of around 61%. Why are we not addressing WHY our governments’ actions over decades mean that we cannot fund our pensions, even at the current pitiful level? Why are we not demanding they do something NOW to fix this and bring us into line with similar so-called advanced economies?

Agree with 1 and 3 - but means testing removes any incentive to provide for yourself unless very gently tapers. Tbh pension credit at pretty much the same as pension already does this! I want to get at least the same as my brother who hasn't worked in almost 20 years!!

In terms of university attendance, I think it was a very small percentage in the 1970s, especially for girls. Only about 5% went to university.

You are quite right about the qualifications requirements being changed. I was a "victim" of that myself. In 1975 I attended an interview to enrol at a teachers' training college. I was accepted and offered a place for September of the following year, to begin a course to obtain a Certificate of Education (which would qualify me to teach at a primary school). I already met the qualification requirement, which was five O-level passes, which must include English Language and Mathematics, but I couldn't begin the course until I was 18.
Unfortunately for me, early in 1976, the college announced that it would be closing and the Cert Ed was being abolished and replaced by the B. Ed. So from September 1976 onwards no further Cert Ed courses would be available in England. The B. Ed. required applicants to have two A-levels.

😂 You're welcome! 😂

Yes, but it's also time something was done about those things too! Some big changes are desperately needed in lots of ways.

Whilst I agree with there being a series of past mistakes, how do you propose that we pay for current and future consequences of it. The past is the past and can't be changed. It'd cost hundreds of billions to pay higher state pensions to everyone. Where does that come from?

How does people deluding themselves about something (which you admit has never been the position in law and “is not real” i.e. does not exist) amount to a “moral obligation” on anybody else? Just because someone silly doesn’t understand how something works doesn’t mean everyone else is obligated to go along with their misconception. A “contract” requires both parties to agree something, not for one to assume something false and the other then forced to fulfil their false expectations that were never agreed. It’s such a bizarre and nonsensical argument.

😆

It's a contribution made in return for a benefit that becomes payable at a certain point in time, provided specific criteria has been met. It is not a hand out.

It doesn't require a contract between the individual and the state. The entitlement to a pension comes from meeting the qualifying criteria set out in law, principally through National Insurance contributions and qualifying years. It's all neatly laid out on the governments website if you care to read it.

It’s not up to me to propose that! I don’t have the detailed knowledge of the economy required but I would hazard a guess that our chronically low wages that are having to be propped up by benefits will not be helping at all and I would start there. The UK is a leaking ship due partly to in work benefits and we need more tax coming in from appropriate wages.

Wow, this is a surprising read. It's a totally topsy-turvy take in relation to the way things are actually done here, and have been the agreement for decades. Do you live in the UK? Because this is a huge misrepresentation of the social contract, and what has been promised to people. It reads as if you are new here and don't get the deal.

The deal is that if you pay your NI over the years, when you retire, you get a pension.

This has been an explicit promise to people. For decades. It hasn't been a misapprehension on there part of some pensioners. It has been factored in to government spending plans and individual retirement planning. Because it has been government policy, and an explicit promise - if you pay your share of NI now, you in your turn get your pension when it is your turn.

The fact that the money you pay in goes to pay for pensioners now, rather than sitting in a savings account, is neither here nor there. You can't pull the rug out from under people when they have spend decades believing you are not lying when you have promised them a pension in retirement. That would not only be incredibly mendacious, it would be financially catastrophic for government finances, as overnight nobody would save for their pension or future.

Actually they haven’t they are paying for the previous generation, like the next generation are paying for the pensions of those currently drawing their pension!

Yep however I think one big debate in the mix has to be people who simply haven’t paid in over the years and expect the same outcome as people having paid in full -

@LostInTheDream
”Many (I know not all) pensioners have also had final salary pension schemes that are now long gone. My DF used to marvel how his was more than I was earning for a 4 day week when my DS was small. I appreciate that owning property outright and a final salary pension isn't the position of all pensioners”.

I know you said many but not all had final salary pensions, and I don’t have facts or references, but I am sure that have such a “gold plated pension” was far less common than often stated. Weren’t (and still) only the preserve of the public sector. I started work in 1978 and my workplace didn’t offer any pension scheme at all. I was 30+ before where I worked had any pension scheme open to me.

How would they do that without increasing tax on an already overtaxed working population? The fact is the SP has outgrown what it was originally intended for and the population is living far longer with too many other budget issues on the government.

And everyone is too frightened to do anything about it because of our right wing dominated press and a lack of proportional representation in gvt and are just constantly looking to the next election -as I said below I personally would if in power piss off a great many in my own age group 55-67 who have taken early retirement and are using private pensions and drawing on savings and would stick NI due on annual drawn down income- as these people are currently paying zilch in NI , as it’s only on work income, but are expecting full free health care and full state pension at 67 - I still think this drawing at 55 was an idiotic political bribe by the Tory’s and I would have brought in drawing down at 62 - unless medically retired and a doctors report at 57 onwards. We now have a ton of people in the age range not contributing NI and often paying very little tax too - I’m not blaming people doing it one bit if they can get by and the options there , but clearly the way state pensions etc are set up to pay the previous generation etc , the country can’t afford for vast swathes to be contributing zilch in NI for 12 years on only a 20% basic tax rate - similar sums in most of EU are more like 35% as NI and tax is just ‘tax’ .

Interesting post @Scotiasdarling

”…….So in 1980 the average salary was around £8000, and the average house cost £23,000. …”

Sorry to pick holes but that £8000 figure seemed too high and info I’ve found is that it’s more like 6-6500/pa. My first mortgage was based on 3 times higher salary and 1x the lower. 1981. I think I earned less than half the average.

Doesn’t answer the question though does it ? This is the only system we have it work with. Why blame the pensioners that happened to be in the right place at the right time ?

Yes that is a fair point but they probably pay tax on their pension and pay council tax

I’m in that bracket but still working

My FIL at 86 has a totally non contributory and non public service pension that pays him more than the state pension , plus of course owning his nice home outright that was bought as a result of originally buying on a 2.5 times single salary in a good area- however what I will say is he realises all of this and is very generous in helping us and his grandson when help is needed and actually offers. I think what many resent is the total lack of empathy by some- the fact pensions aren’t usually non contributory, student money isn’t grants, overtime is often expected and unpaid, houses in even a just ok area can often be7 times single salary or 4 times joint and companies coming and going are more common -

This is surely a ragebait post.

My take home pay after tax and NI in 1980 was £200 a month. DH’s slightly higher at around £250 a month. Our first house cost £16000. Refused for a mortgage twice based on earnings. Had to save for a 15% deposit before they would consider us. By the time we had saved interest rates were 15%. I’m absolutely not saying that things aren’t difficult now but everything is relative and the notion that mortgages were handed out like sweeties is just nonsense.

Yep, but so do the rest of us who are still paying NI as well - I fail to see why this whole tranche of people are suddenly exempt from paying into what was meant to be for health care and pensions - well if they vote Farage in they certainly won’t be - state health care in Germany of several hundred Euros is paid in full, even asa pensioner if he goes down that route- oh and I’m in that bracket too and still working full time