‘It’s not a nice world to bring children into’ - Births fall to the lowest level in 50 years - BBC article

[OneBusyFinch]

Just reading this article and don’t think I’ve seen a thread on it.

More people are having fewer children - and it’s not just the UK, the data shows it’s a worldwide trend. Interesting reading the different perspectives.

I expect this hands off approach probably worked ok when it was normal and expected for other adults to bollock the feral kids when they misbehaved. I've heard parents on here claim that no other adult should even be allowed to speak to their child without going through them.

Of course some children are badly parented and annoying, but that has always been the case and isn’t really what I’m talking about - there are more people who are completely intolerant of normal child behaviour. I don’t think there have always been so many people who don’t think children belong in society and would prefer to see them replaced by dogs.

Having children is a choice. I chose to have less than I would have liked due to cost and life balance. The nurse with her camper seems a strange example plenty of people travel and work with children. I personally feel the world is a different place now to when I had my children over 12 years ago. I would think twice as somehow it seems a scarier and harder place. Yes as a nation we seem to have become more materialistic and sadly I think that has had a huge impact on upbringing.

I actually have had some younger colleagues say to me they do want kids but worry about the amount of SEN these days and worry they wouldn't cope if the child had some issues.

This was my thinking as well, as a teenager and young adult. I’ve worked and volunteered with SEN children, and I have seen how hard it can be for the parents. The possibility of this was one thing which deterred me from becoming a parent.

Gosh that’s a really simplistic view. Did it ever occur to you that those ‘immigrants’ may not share your values or beliefs? However did you think your values get passed down from one generation to another? I find your viewpoint very shortsighted and worrying.

Resurrecting this in light on the heatwave and the terrible likelihood that this will be the new reality going forward - and the impacts in terms of food production and climate migration.

This is the prime issue in my opinion.

It’s a huge demographic problem as fewer and fewer young people are left with the financial burden of supporting a huge number of long living pensioners.

But the 'drive' to reproduce appears to have got lost in translation in recent times, or may not be there at all.

The nurse said you were taking the piss??

Who are those ‘expecting’ that of women? Women in the west have choices. If they do ‘everything at home’ then they only have themselves to blame. Make better choices.

We now have

a) female controlled contraception

b) more social acceptance of not having children or having one child

c) much more knowledge of the realities of having children (usually the negatives) via the internet and

d) far far higher expectations on parents.

With all these together, a fall in birth rate was inevitable.

I don’t think it’s anything to do with people being worried about the state of the world, it’s much more about people deciding what kind of life they want to have.

Its only really in the last few years that parenting has been a choice, yes we’ve had contraception for ages, but rather than more contraception we needed attitude to change.

Most places with access to contraception and with less pressure to become parents have low birth rates.

Where we live fulltime childcare for your first child is about £120 a month, about £84 for the second, £30 for the third and £0 for the rest. There are no university fees. Work places are very family friendly, parental leave is generous, as is leave to look after an unwell child. Business slow down in school holidays as its accepted that most parents will need to take time off work. Unless you choose to live in the capital housing is affordable. Healthcare is good. The birth rate is around 1.43.

If someone doesn’t want children free childcare won’t change their view, it will only change the view of people who want more but can’t quite afford and don’t want to make financial sacrificies in other areas of their lives.

We have two, although admittedly no matter how many have the birth rate won’t increase. We stopped at two mainly because we didn’t want to spread our time too much between our children.

I think it’s smartphones. We find Tik Tok far more rewarding and entertaining than bringing up children.

Plus men’s arrested development. They haven’t moved on since the 70s. Smart independent girls just aren’t putting up with duds any more.

I find this doesn’t align with my peer group at school uni or work, middle class uni educated now early 40s

every single person has had children the majority 2, a few 1 or 3. Like everyone, only know 2 deliberately childless people. It’s actually a status symbol really to have 3- ie you can afford 5 bedrooms, bigger car and can maintain a good lifestyle with holidays with 3 children.

perhaps it’s the generation younger (ie the one under millennial) that’s now in 20s that’s basically opting out whereas millennials even educated ones started having kids late 20s then early 30s the majority hmm

Another article on this topic - the considerations they had are echoed already by posters on this thread i.e ;

• anxieties about climate change
• commitment to careers
• financial constraints
• eagerness to travel
• greater freedom of choice

My eldest has got DC but my younger two aren't showing any signs of wanting them. I think they're both concerned about SEN and having DC that are challenging, lifestyle change and finances.

I'm not judging them at all - whilst I'd adore any more grandchildren that come my way, if I was looking at having kids now in this shitshow of a country I don't think I would.

your observation seems to match the articles @BridgetJonesV2

With my mum friends, most of them are well off as dcs are at a private school, and almost everyone has 1 or 2 dcs. They could easily afford to have a bigger family but they like the simpler lifestyle of just having one, or feel like they've ticked off a box in life by having two, and don't want the extra hassle of any more. I don't think they take the state of the world into account, it's more about the effect on their personal lifestyle.

My child free friends are mostly through a hobby and have relatively carefree lives and don't want to compromise that for having dcs. Most of them could afford to have dcs so I don't think it's the finances but more of the effect on lifestyle. Some of them have never been in a long enough relationship so it's never been something they've considered seriously.

However I do know families with large numbers of dcs in our neighbourhood. It's just part of certain cultures and seems to be a default for them and that's unlikely to change, so there will always be families bringing the average birth rates up.

I think romantic relationships are much more transactional at the moment.

That finding a partner you trust and desire to bring up children with is the first hurdle.

Women are much more likely to be left with the baby should the relationship fail, no matter how much the man says he wants them. Men are even more likely to walk out if you have a child whom has SEN. It’s a risk and one that is now “out in the open” partly thanks to social media.

I wasn’t that maternal, take it or leave it, but then I met H and it seemed an option with him and he wanted children. But until then, nope. And now, I would seriously add private school into the list of needs, I think state education is going to be a bun fight for at least a decade.

Isn’t this good news, a lowering of population, yes it might be difficult, but surely we come out the other side with a win, better for the environment, better for life not so crowded, more choice of houses not as expensive, state pension will be affordable, NHS not under pressure etc

@leaderZ

perhaps it’s the generation younger (ie the one under millennial) that’s now in 20s that’s basically opting out whereas millennials even educated ones started having kids late 20s then early 30s the majority hmm

Yes, nailed it. My son is 24. Literally not a single one of his friends from primary school, secondary school, Uni, hobbies nor work has yet had a child. I still know most of his primary school friend parents as it was our village school, so I know what most of them are doing from village chats. Obviously have to rely on what he tells us about his secondary, Uni and work friends, but from what he says, none are married, none are parents. Most are in professional jobs and it's just not on their radar, whether male or female (he lived with 5 girls at Uni and still friends with them!). What they ARE all concerned about is their futures, uncertain about jobs, uncertain about the state of the country, annoyed at having to live in squalid HMO's rather than being able to afford their own flats (not even to rent!), several already planning to emigrate, etc. Having a child or two is literally way down their list of priorities - he says it's not even a rare topic of conversation, just not on their radar at all. People aren't going to be thinking about having children if they can't even get their own flat (whether bought or rented) to live in to bring them up! No one wants to be bringing up a baby/young child in an HMO, even if it is full of other professionals.

We have decided not to have any children. It’s for a few reasons but mostly;
lack of family support
cost of childcare/university etc
behaviour of most children i meet or see if so bad I don’t want to spend time with them
Climate change and how awful the world is

Nail on the head with your "wrong kind of people" comment. It does seem that it's the "wrong kind" who are having the most children, and at younger ages, and that generational issues like poor education, unemployment, poor health choices, etc., are perpetuated.

Unfortunately the ones who are shunning children ARE the ones we NEED to have children, i.e. trained/professional workers, those with a work ethic, those with entreprenneurial ideas, etc., who are more likely to ensure their kids are educated, have a work ethic and eventually join the workforce to do the jobs that we need doing.

Unless we encourage the "right" kind of people to breed, the cycle will perpetuate and things will continue to get worse.