‘It’s not a nice world to bring children into’ - Births fall to the lowest level in 50 years - BBC article

[OneBusyFinch]

Just reading this article and don’t think I’ve seen a thread on it.

More people are having fewer children - and it’s not just the UK, the data shows it’s a worldwide trend. Interesting reading the different perspectives.

I’m at the gruelling end of caring for elderly parents / PIL. One died of cancer fairly young and very quickly. One died slowly and agonisingly (for all) of Motor. Neurone Disease. He longed for death - but on his own terms.

the other two lingered with illness and dementia, one bed-bound for years. Both asked repeatedly what was the use of keeping them alive? They openly wished to go: both gave the example of much-loved pets who had been let go with love. In later years, they couldn’t actually articulate this choice because they had deteriorated further, and had an even worse quality of life

I hope beyond words that when it’s my turn, I’ll be able to go with dignity at a time of my choosing. Such a choice would relieve pressure on the birth rate

Too many of the wrong kind of people. Governments can’t decide if they want more young people to tax, or more older people to woo for votes. Occasionally, the wealthy let slip phrases such as “I cannot understand why we are not thinking about population control”. Didn’t HRH Prince Philip once say “if I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, to control the population?” How prescient.

I’ve thought “the world is a vile place to bring children into” since I was a teenager in the 90s. My view has not changed, and 2020 with its cruelty to the younger generation cemented my decision.

The number of children we had was dictated by finances and the quality of life we want for the children we already have. When we had our first about 2 decades ago, all the things listed in your bullet points were still true. I had £117 per week mat pay and could only afford the 9 months of that and not the extra 3 months of nothing. When I returned to work, a full day in nursery was a fiver less than my pre tax salary per day.

Within my friendship group, the reasons for those with none or one child are vastly different depending on their circumstances but include: domestic abuse after first child born, medical condition which would have made further pregnancies very dangerous with sight loss likely, death a couple of years after first child's birth, needing to care for an adult relative, IVF as a solo parent so very expensive to have further pregnancies, recurrent pregnancy loss, medical condition which led to hysterectomy, infertility following cancer treatment, choosing adoption and wanting to focus on raising the one child. And so on. None of these reasons are listed in the bullet point list as they're so specific to individual circumstances. Some of these were about choices made by women to live a healthier and safer life and I'm glad we live in an era where that is possible or else I'd probably have lost more of them by now.

Scum will keep breeding though.

I never ever understood people saying they couldn’t afford kids, I always thought ‘you cut your cloth, lower your luxuries etc etc. But now, who knows who’ll have jobs other than a lucky few geniuses that’ll regulate ai and the rest of us little more than worker drones (I work on a checkout lol!!!). The environment is being effed and there’s wars everywhere now, I think we’re heading too close to dystopian times. So now I see why people said that before!!

I will say I don’t think people who don’t have kids will ever know what they’re missing, they’ll always see the money they take as opposed to the moments that make it worthwhile. Give me my kids over self care, luxuries, financial stability anyday. But each to their own and I honestly mean that- I know people who see my life as hell and don’t realise the chaos gives me the warm and fuzzies!!!

100% agree. There is no balance that is right, people are living too long and doctors are playing God in prolonging life where there is no quality left for the individual.
The world is going down the pan and the younger generation are going to suffer for all the shit that previous generations, mine included, have added to it.
I don't know how some people can say they love their kids, yet not give a shit about the planet that they are leaving for them.
I know several knobs who have said "Not bothered, I'll be dead anyway."
This is from twats who have adult kids and grandchildren.

But you can't keep feeding large numbers in at the bottom, because then it will never even out. And the population will grow and grow.

Older people are healthier than they used to be, and are working longer, which goes some way towards compensating for the lower birth rate. Hopefully there'll be generations of people reaching middle age who've smoked far less than previous generations, so are better able to continue working.

And right now there aren't enough jobs for young people anyway. It's in the news every day. So even if we imported 10 million 25 year olds, they wouldn't be able to contribute much to the economy to fund the pensioners!

If by 'even out' you mean birth rate rising again to match replacement rate, then don't worry, that is never going to happen. Unless we have some sort of societal catastrophe which means that women no longer have access to contraception.

I agree that the world is currently in an awful state to bring children into. I know I don't have many years left, and I am so glad I grew up in the last seven decades. I feel as though Covid encouraged people to become more selfish, irresponsible and disrespectful towards others and towards the world in general. Life seemed so much more pleasant pre 2020.

If I was young now I would not have children.

I have two adult children aged 29 and 38. Both have decided not to have children. The 29 year old is considering fostering/adoption. I think they are very wise.

Older people are healthier than they used to be, and are working longer, which goes some way towards compensating for the lower birth rate. Hopefully there'll be generations of people reaching middle age who've smoked far less than previous generations, so are better able to continue working.

@BerryTwister

why on earth do you think older people are healthier than they used to be?!

It's a nicer world than at any time in history, so that can't be driving the shift. Nor does the cost-of-living story stack up. Real wage growth has slowed horribly, but we are much richer in real terms than 50 years ago and getting richer (slowly).

My best bet is it's partly smartphones, weird as it seems. We know they sharply reduce in-person socialising (timing fits vs when 4G was introduced in various places), especially amongst the age groups that traditionally drove fertility.

We no longer rely on children to work or to keep us in our old age, so for a while they were for fun. Now something more fun has come along.

www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/07/baby-boomers-living-longer-but-are-in-worse-health-than-previous-generations

So the question is, is being dead a worse state of health than being alive but in poor health?

The stress of having children is not worth it now. Everything is too expensive, theres no village to help & women are expected to do everything at home & with kids plus work like a man

@Wallywonker72 "Every single reason for not having children is selfish"

I wonder how many people who do have children do so for unselfish reasons. Whoever started a family for the good of society?

I honestly think the rise of the internet has had an understated role in this but haven’t seen anywhere mention it yet.
8 hours screen time a day is normal for some people. People ignoring each other to scroll their phones instead of actual socialisation. From a young age with kids sat gaming instead of playing outside with neighbours.

To have a baby you have to find someone to have a baby with first!

And of course the price of rent. If people can only afford a one bedroom flat and already have one kid in the bedroom while they sleep on the sofa having a second kid who could be the opposite gender probably won’t seem like a good option.

Finding a partner you can parent with is the first step.

I think our society now is also in some ways increasingly hostile towards children. There are more people who say that they dislike children and that children don’t belong in public spaces like restaurants, planes, theatres etc. It’s not just that children should be seen and not heard, it seems like there’s a growing group that doesn’t even want to see them which I think is very sad for society. Possibly a reflection of a broader trend of people becoming more misanthropic.

I haven’t looked up the stats so I could be wrong, but the fact that everyone is living longer suggests they are healthier. We have screening programmes that didn’t previously exist, and more available treatments for different conditions, as well as greater knowledge of health. The thresholds for treating high blood pressure and cholesterol have come down in the last 2 decades, so those who seek treatment will have a lower cardiovascular risk than previous generations. Cancer screening and treatment is better than it used to be. Fewer people smoke, and with the advent of WLI there’ll be fewer obese people.

The other relevant points are that male misogyny and violence is growing again, and we all know climate change is coming.

Male misogyny has grown with the internet and mass migration both, and is a direct betrayal of the promises of equality made to xennial and millennial generations. They do this to us every time. I do think young teen women are very much aware of the crap that they face, no matter how much the discussion and social awareness we had in the 80s/ 90s has dropped out of media. My daughter and her friends certainly are.

I’d like to think you’re right, Berry, but suspect that in a lot of cases medical advances simply mean that people are being kept alive longer, at vast cost, without any quality of life at all. I know that was the case for my parents, as I have stated above.

Btw lifespans in the UK have started to fall, and as usual inequality is in play. So don’t bother trying to spin me how good we have it because lifespans are increasing.

It's shit parenting, sorry, lack of parenting from some people that is the problem.
Kids running around screaming, causing problems while the 'entitled parents' are messing about with their phones and don't give a toss what their entitled ferals are doing. I.e annoying everyone else. I love my kids but I find some peoples kids annoying for the above reasons. Most kids are okay, laugh, play etc it's the unruly, disrespectful ones that are my bug bear.
Thankfully where I live we don't see too many of them.

The shit parents don't think they are shit parents. They are parenting the way they were parented. Lack of education, poverty and inequality are all major factors that need to be addressed. Those higher up the rung often don't like the attempts to 'level up', they don't want the riff raff competing with their precious DC.

The cost of housing is a major factor. People like to feel they have a stable home to bring children into and raise them. Even homeowners are now not having children because they simply don’t have the disposable income.

Even if you have done everything society wants you to do to prepare for parenthood - a couple with two professional jobs and a mortgage, how are you going to afford childcare on top, at a time when you are also over the earnings threshold for paying back student loans and basic bills escalating due to the cost of living? There’s little quality of life in this existence. It’s really sad.