Would you say non-white people born & raised in England are English?

[rack909]

Just thought I should hear people’s perspective on this.

Some say it’s an ethnicity, some say it’s a nationality & others say it’s both of them.

I personally think it’s both a Nationality & ethnic group.

If someone says they are from England, they are denoting their nationality as English even if they don’t say it outright. It’s the same thing.

It’s an ethnoreligious group and a separate religious grouping, as you can convert to Judaism and be Jewish. As Judaism is matrilineal, a child born of a religious convert would be religiously but not ethnically Jewish.

And apparently not when it comes to Jewish people being entitled to live in their Israeli homeland, because too many of them are not really Jews, they are too “European”.

@Reallyhow Only a close-minded/sheltered/ ignorant/uneducated/racist person would think otherwise.

Also, some cultures have a primarily ethnic conception of nationhood. eg most of East Asia, most of the Gulf, much of Eastern Europe.

Do you consider most Koreans, Japanese, Arabs to be close-minded/ sheltered/ ignorant/uneducated/ racist for thinking that way?

I’m not asking to have a go at you but because I think this is a really interesting question. A major reason Africa has so many multi-ethnic countries is because colonialists imposed those borders, but that’s usually something they are criticised for.

I wonder what the results would be if they did an equivalent poll in Pakistan, or Brazil, or Nigeria, or Japan.

I’m Irish. Immigration into Ireland in significant numbers is a comparatively new thing. Immigration of people who aren’t white is even newer. One or two generations, at most, in most cases. Are those people, born and raised here, as Irish as I am? Absolutely.

Some Americans view American as both an ethnicity and a nationality. It is included in ethnicity/ancestry option on some US Census surveys and other forms. Much like in many other countries, there is some status in having a long American heritage. While varying by region just like any other country, plenty of Americans have shared heritage, collective history, and cultural traditions, even when it's a genetic and social mix - again, much like most other nations when we go back over the centuries

The only people who answer like that are pre-Civil War white Americans, because their ethnic origins have been lost and/or they are direct descendants of the founding stock.

Black Americans would never say that. Interestingly, in the past 20 years due to mass immigration from parts of Africa such as Somalia, a new distinction is being made here. ADOS, American Descendant of Slaves, because they don’t see themselves as sharing the same background as recent African immigrants. More radical elements call themselves FBAs, Foundational Black Americans.

So no, this ‘American’ label really just refers to white Americans with no recent migrant status. It could became an ethnicity in its own right as we’ve no significant input from Europe anymore and will become more cohesive as a result. I would say it has been baked in since WW2.

Edited to add I quoted that post but didn’t mean to. Sorry!

If someone is born and raised in England then they’re British.

If you read my comment, the DNA test did not pick up on it, but I happen to know that there is Ashkenazi Jewish in my family tree. That's a much more genetically clear ethnic group than "English".

This.

Ancestry can clearly pick up English people with a clear ancestry from different parts of England which is different to other parts of England and can be shared with other European countries.

If you have ancestry from Yorkshire, this can show up as Yorkshire but it sometimes will show up as Sweden. Like wise Highlands of Scotland can show up as Norwegian. Someone from the South East can show up as part of France. The North East shows up as distinct. And I've not even mentioned Cornwall. You get Manx and NI. Liverpool and Wales are very connected.

So someone from one part of England can show up as very different to someone from another part of England - and show the migration pattern in that area going back hundreds of years.

"Possibly with a bit of Jewish in there" doesn't really say that you know that, which is the comment I was responding to. If you are certain your mother has Jewish ethnicity in her family tree, then "possibly" is surely redundant?

So places which were historically invaded and therefore mixed in some different group at some point in history do not have ethnic group?

Or is it that people don't realise that English group does not mean there are no sub groups.
Like Arabs, or Slavs etc. "Asian" is considered ethnic group here, has thousands subgroups. And many from mixed groups.

Also, yet again I point out it is officialal ethnic group on gov docs and research papers, so I take it people think researches are just bit dim or neo nazi or something?

If English isn't ethnic group, what ethnicity are the people then?

No, I don't mind your accusing me of 'pigeonholing' if I say people from England are English!

I earlier mentioned I'd consider a second generation immigrant to be eg English if they integrated.
An example of someone who is second generation, but hasn't integrated, is the "Italian" man Salim El Koudri of Modena, for instance.

Yes, we are still part of Europe, believe it or not.
it literally is a geographical area

And English.

That’s really interesting.

Your example is confusing. You say English is not ethnicity but then say Greek, Italian are. Am I getting something wrong?

Many people from other ethnicities don’t feel emotional connection with England. That’s why they support national team of their ethic country even if they never lived there. So you may think they are English but they don’t feel like that eg the poster you are replying to here feels insulted by being called English.

I am going to say something, kind of changing the thoughts here.
Isn’t up to the person themselves?
I kind of think, if you call yourself English (yes I know. Other nationalities are available in the UK) then you are English.
We are not an ethnicity, we are not an agreement, we are not all one thing.
The least interesting thing about me is my nationality

@rack909 , lots of the far left on mumsnet would regard me as far right. 🙄 You are English of course if you are born in England but I would also consider you English if you were not born here but had lived here for some time and had adopted a loyalty to England. It has absolutely nothing to do with the colour of your skin, your religion, what you wear , yhada, yhada. I told you I was a far right thug. 😉

It depends on if you see English as an administrative identity or a cultural one. I see it as administrative - if you were born and raised in England you’re English. You can ‘identify’ how you like but the former is the fact. Culturally I identify as both English and British - English within the UK, and British outside of it.

Honest, appreciate that

Many of the most patriotic English people are not white and/or Christians.

I was born in south London and my nationality is British not English.

How and why?

.