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Would you say non-white people born & raised in England are English?

558 replies

rack909 · 16/05/2026 08:28

Just thought I should hear people’s perspective on this.

Some say it’s an ethnicity, some say it’s a nationality & others say it’s both of them.

I personally think it’s both a Nationality & ethnic group.

If someone says they are from England, they are denoting their nationality as English even if they don’t say it outright. It’s the same thing.

OP posts:
TemperanceWest · 16/05/2026 19:53

RingoJuice · 16/05/2026 19:43

None of them are ethnic English because English isn’t ‘generic white person’ but an ethnicity just as distinct as Japanese, Han Chinese, Nepali (Bhutan knows this one lol), Burmese, German, etc.

A lot of you pretend not to know but it’s actually important that you learn the difference between ethnicity and nationality.

If someone was born in England with a Greek father and a mother of German heritage, would they be English?

RingoJuice · 16/05/2026 19:55

Notonthestairs · 16/05/2026 19:48

Why is it important?

Because nationality does not equal ethnicity. There are very few ethnostates nowadays. Maybe North Korea. Even places like Japan have a (strict) process of naturalization.

An ‘English’ person has British nationality. What is their ethnicity? It’s not ‘white’ because that’s not an ethnicity

RingoJuice · 16/05/2026 19:56

TemperanceWest · 16/05/2026 19:53

If someone was born in England with a Greek father and a mother of German heritage, would they be English?

It’s very likely they’d identify as British of Greek-German heritage. That’s super specific tho. Is that your heritage?

TemperanceWest · 16/05/2026 20:05

RingoJuice · 16/05/2026 19:56

It’s very likely they’d identify as British of Greek-German heritage. That’s super specific tho. Is that your heritage?

No. It is King Charles' heritage. Although tbf Philip was born in Greece, but had Danish, German and Russian heritage, I think.

LBFseBrom · 16/05/2026 20:07

You are English/British, no doubt about that.

RingoJuice · 16/05/2026 20:12

TemperanceWest · 16/05/2026 20:05

No. It is King Charles' heritage. Although tbf Philip was born in Greece, but had Danish, German and Russian heritage, I think.

And don’t people still whine that they are German?

LizzieW1969 · 16/05/2026 20:30

RingoJuice · 16/05/2026 19:55

Because nationality does not equal ethnicity. There are very few ethnostates nowadays. Maybe North Korea. Even places like Japan have a (strict) process of naturalization.

An ‘English’ person has British nationality. What is their ethnicity? It’s not ‘white’ because that’s not an ethnicity

And what about those who have a dual ethnicity like me, English and Slavic (Czech father)? But I was born and grew up in England, that’s what makes me English rather than my ethnicity. Nothing whatsoever to do with me being white.

blacksax · 16/05/2026 20:39

TheFrendo · 16/05/2026 10:37

They are not English. They cannot be. The English are a cultural/genetic group.

I am not sure why so many posters deny the existence of the English as a gentic group.

I bet they would not deny the existence of the Yoruba, Han or Maya.

'English' is not a standalone genetic group. A more correct term might be 'white northern European' or possibly 'Germanic', which is a whole mixture in itself.

Besides, what we now call England was physically connected to Europe by Doggerland (which is now under the North Sea) until the middle Stone age circa 6,000 bce. People from all over the entirety of Europe and further afield migrated here, bringing their languages with them. Which explains why the English language has so many words in it.

blacksax · 16/05/2026 21:12

soddingspiderseason · 16/05/2026 12:07

MN HQ seemingly ok with far right replacement theory rhetoric. But if more report then maybe they will realise just how deeply offensive this is to non-white MN users. Appalled to be affronted by this on a usually ‘safe’ space from overt racism.

I didn't see the comments referred to (it's a long fast-moving thread) and they are now deleted, and I can assure you that I too, as a white MNetter, would have been horrified and appalled by overt racism.

TiredShadows · 16/05/2026 21:23

I don't generally go around thinking about whether someone else is English, I just go with what they say.

I'm a mixed race immigrant. I'm well aware that there are people who will never see me as British because I'm a naturalised citizen and no British blood unless we go back a few hundred years with some questionable documents, too far back to likely remain in my genetics. There were also many people who discussed with me how they thought I was British well before I was legally, based on how long I'd lived in the UK (since I was a teenager) and how I live. I don't mind as long as people aren't asses about it. Someone else not considering me British doesn't bother me.

I've four kids born and raised in England, my husband/their father is English. One identifies as English ethnically, and even then, it's only on paperwork and - in his words - 'because that's how people tend to see me' as he's on the lighter side of medium skin tone. They've all met people who've told them they don't consider them English or British because of me or how they talk or because we don't do some specific English thing. That's part of why three of my kids don't identify as English.

Different groups and individuals have different requirements and those can change over time. I mean, many people are saying people are British if they're born here, but the UK hasn't had jus soli since 1983. Fathers weren't able to pass on citizenship without being married to the mother before 2006. That' citizenship that has laws and usually paperwork. Heritage is more complicated than that. Many groups requiring maternal and/or paternal direct descent to be 'official', and many people - me included - have gaps in what we really know about our heritage.

But to answer your question, they became fully American after the 1924 Indian Citizenship Act, because ‘American’ is considered a nationality, not an ethnicity.

Depends on what you mean by 'fully American'. Many would argue that 1978 with the Indian Child Welfare Act meaning parents could no longer be forced to send their children to residential schools (though still have a higher rate of having children taken into care, and until the 90s this meant being sent to the same schools we've recently found mass graves) and the American Indian Religious Freedom Act - prior to that, it was legal to ban sacred practices including dances and religious attire, though again, there is still a fight on these to this day.

Some Americans view American as both an ethnicity and a nationality. It is included in ethnicity/ancestry option on some US Census surveys and other forms. Much like in many other countries, there is some status in having a long American heritage. While varying by region just like any other country, plenty of Americans have shared heritage, collective history, and cultural traditions, even when it's a genetic and social mix - again, much like most other nations when we go back over the centuries.

blacksax · 16/05/2026 21:35

BadBadCat · 16/05/2026 12:26

Seeing as the Anglo Saxons were the last mass settlers in England and that was about 1500 years ago it's pretty fair to say that families descending from them and the people that were also here previous to them have the right to call themselves and think of themselves English. I don't see anyone claiming that the Welsh have no right to call themselves Welsh?

The Norman Conquest made a fairly big impression.😂

Besides, it seems that one stumbling block is that some people on this thread are asserting that the 'English' are not only an ethnicity but a distinct genetic group. Troubling. Because that would imply that they think anyone not in that genetic group cannot be pure 'English'. Even more troubling, that one, and verging on the ultra far-right A-word.

changedglasscat · 16/05/2026 21:53

Of course they are! For some people
of bad faith this is a faux ‘debate’ for those who want to rally the racists. Not at all saying that’s you
OP but if you’d had such conversations with others they may not have raised the issue for entirely innocent purposes.
gutted we’re still having these conversations.

chocolateaddictions · 16/05/2026 22:03

LondonPapa · 16/05/2026 08:40

I suspect this is race baiting but no. Culturally it’s likely they’re not English. This has been showed again and again by some people, some in high-paid media jobs!, that they don’t share English (or rather British) culture and values.

What? Would you like to give some examples?

BadBadCat · 16/05/2026 22:04

blacksax · 16/05/2026 21:35

The Norman Conquest made a fairly big impression.😂

Besides, it seems that one stumbling block is that some people on this thread are asserting that the 'English' are not only an ethnicity but a distinct genetic group. Troubling. Because that would imply that they think anyone not in that genetic group cannot be pure 'English'. Even more troubling, that one, and verging on the ultra far-right A-word.

Oh 😂😂 you're so clever...!

Actually, the Norman conquest had little impact on the gene pool and ethnicity of the general population of Britain, they really only impacted the aristocracy. Very few integrated with the population and settled here. Yes, it had massive cultural impact but the Anglo Saxons and Vikings are considered the last major group of settlers in the Uk until recent times.

BadBadCat · 16/05/2026 22:22

During a recent PSCHE lesson about what was considered a British Value, it became apparent that children in my primary school who are second and third generation immigrants from Pakistan still don't consider themselves British.They are first and foremost Pakistani Muslims in their minds. Whereas I and the white British children 100% considered them British.

RingoJuice · 17/05/2026 05:49

blacksax · 16/05/2026 20:39

'English' is not a standalone genetic group. A more correct term might be 'white northern European' or possibly 'Germanic', which is a whole mixture in itself.

Besides, what we now call England was physically connected to Europe by Doggerland (which is now under the North Sea) until the middle Stone age circa 6,000 bce. People from all over the entirety of Europe and further afield migrated here, bringing their languages with them. Which explains why the English language has so many words in it.

You can break down pretty much any ethnicity this way. Take the Japanese.

They are perhaps 20% Jomon aboriginal (which is higher in the fringes, in Hokkaido and Okinawa) and 70-80% Korean rice farmer immigrant. In the classical ages, you had a lot of immigration from China, bringing Buddhism and other cultural traditions.

But if you wanted to be reductive, you’d say they were nothing but trumped up Korean rice farmers, no different to modern-day Koreans and other northeast Asian groups.

But why would you do that?

Griselinia · 17/05/2026 08:31

bumptybum · 16/05/2026 19:25

Going back how many generations. And are you only thinking of non-white people? What about someone with German parents who was born and brought up in England?

and what of it was say one English and one German parent?

How many generations? I think two born in the country and that goes for anyone regardless of colour/heritage.
Born in England to two German born parents? British.
Born in England to one English and one German parent? Half English, half German!

usernamealreadytaken · 17/05/2026 09:30

ImImmortalNowBabyDoll · 16/05/2026 13:06

There is no English ethnicity. We've been invaded a million times. There's also no such thing as 100% white, if you go back far enough you'll have a non-white ancestor somewhere or other. Even in the same family you can have siblings who "pass" for white and others who are clearly not white. Are we going to have everyone stand up against a Dulux colour chart?

Even DNA testing tells you nothing. I did one and came back 100% Scottish with an unknown quantity of Barbadian (later found out I'm loosely related to Captain Morgan-as in the rum- so that tracks). I don't know my bio-father (sperm donor) but my Mum's side is Welsh, possibly with a bit of Jewish in there. And to look at me, you'd think I was a very pale Spaniard.

“With a bit of Jewish in there”… I had no idea DNA testing could determine religious affiliation; do elaborate.

usernamealreadytaken · 17/05/2026 09:36

EdithBond · 16/05/2026 13:22

This is common for next generations too.

British people, whose parents/grandparents are from elsewhere, visit or move to the place their family were from (e.g. Ireland, Spain, Jamaica, Bangladesh, Ghana) and are treated as British/European ‘foreigners’.

Because they are British. And were European (pre-Brexit).

You know that being European has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with membership of a political union? Are you suggesting that Bosnians, Albanians, or Ukrainians, are not European? 🤣

FulsomSparrow · 17/05/2026 09:45

blacksax · 16/05/2026 21:35

The Norman Conquest made a fairly big impression.😂

Besides, it seems that one stumbling block is that some people on this thread are asserting that the 'English' are not only an ethnicity but a distinct genetic group. Troubling. Because that would imply that they think anyone not in that genetic group cannot be pure 'English'. Even more troubling, that one, and verging on the ultra far-right A-word.

But the English are a distinct genetic group surely?

A DNA test can tell between English, French, German etc. DNA, so how can they not be genetically distinct at all?

I'm not white, but I'm not sure why there is this strange insistance that white people don't have a distinct ethnicity. They do, just like every other race has it's own ethnicities within it.

soddingspiderseason · 17/05/2026 09:47

usernamealreadytaken · 17/05/2026 09:30

“With a bit of Jewish in there”… I had no idea DNA testing could determine religious affiliation; do elaborate.

Being Jewish is an ethnicity. Look it up. Its not a “religious affiliation “.

Headstarttohappiness · 17/05/2026 09:48

Reallyhow · 16/05/2026 08:37

Yes. If I'm white, but born and raised in an Asian or African country, I'd be for example, Kenyan or Vietnamese. Only a close-minded/sheltered/ignorant/uneducated/racist person would think otherwise.

This. Why are you asking this very loaded question.

chocolateaddictions · 17/05/2026 10:11

BadBadCat · 16/05/2026 22:22

During a recent PSCHE lesson about what was considered a British Value, it became apparent that children in my primary school who are second and third generation immigrants from Pakistan still don't consider themselves British.They are first and foremost Pakistani Muslims in their minds. Whereas I and the white British children 100% considered them British.

Edited

I think this is specific to this ethnic group who are the least integrated into British society.

GeneralPeter · 17/05/2026 10:12

blacksax · 16/05/2026 21:35

The Norman Conquest made a fairly big impression.😂

Besides, it seems that one stumbling block is that some people on this thread are asserting that the 'English' are not only an ethnicity but a distinct genetic group. Troubling. Because that would imply that they think anyone not in that genetic group cannot be pure 'English'. Even more troubling, that one, and verging on the ultra far-right A-word.

The main person on this thread advancing a pure-blood conception of ethnicity is you.

You say English can’t be an ethnicity because it’s historically a genetic mix.

What you haven’t explained is your objection to ethnic groups being that.

They gain their coherence through shared history and social meaning, and also the resulting mix becomes recognisable in its own way. Just like a particular cocktail is recognisable and nameable, even if it was created from other elements (which now cannot be separated out).

GeneralPeter · 17/05/2026 10:43

Reallyhow · 16/05/2026 08:37

Yes. If I'm white, but born and raised in an Asian or African country, I'd be for example, Kenyan or Vietnamese. Only a close-minded/sheltered/ignorant/uneducated/racist person would think otherwise.

Sure, but would you be a Viet? Obviously no, I think.

The issue with English is that we use the same word for both things.

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