Would you say non-white people born & raised in England are English?

[rack909]

Just thought I should hear people’s perspective on this.

Some say it’s an ethnicity, some say it’s a nationality & others say it’s both of them.

I personally think it’s both a Nationality & ethnic group.

If someone says they are from England, they are denoting their nationality as English even if they don’t say it outright. It’s the same thing.

I think what is key here, is that your parents moved back to Scotland and that's where you were raised, and where you live.

Had you stayed in India, went to school in India, spoke Hindi, and still lived there now, how would you feel if someone told you that you weren't Indian, or told you to go "home". You would 100% be Indian, even though you were white.

Would my son be seen as English? - all eight great-grandparents are Irish, three of four grandparents also Irish born, me Irish but moved to UK as an adult, his dad born in England. Our son would never ever identify as anything but English, even though he has lived in Ireland longer than he lived in England where he was born.

and some people here don’t think I am actually Irish as my ancestors came over with Cromwell - even after centuries of being here!! Anglo-Irish / West Brit is what my son’s paternal family consider me!

Therefore, English is an ethnicity, social construct or not, because millions of people with a shared culture and similar origin identify themselves as English!

I’m pretty sure most celts in Devon are happy being English😀

If that’s how they identify. I dad was born here to immigrant parents and he sees himself as English, but I know some people identify more with their families culture. My dad has also never been to Russia and doesn’t speak any Russian. Someone who speaks their parents language and has frequently visited where their family are from probably feels differently to him.

I don’t really think being white or non white has anything to do with it I would say it’s more about your culture. I don’t really care though if someone tells me they’re English/ Scottish/ Irish then that’s what they are as far as I’m concerned doesn’t matter what you look like.

English. And British.

Your ethnicity isn't even recorded on your passport.

I'm not disputing that English can be regarded an ethnicity. I'm saying that there is no legal or scientific definition of Englishness as an ethnicity, so ultimately it comes down to subjective factors such as identity.

I've lived in Scotland for over 50 years. I have a Scottish accent.

I'm still English. Because that's where I was born.

''@TheFrendo · Today 10:37
They are not English. They cannot be. The English are a cultural/genetic group.
I am not sure why so many posters deny the existence of the English as a gentic group. I bet they would not deny the existence of the Yoruba, Han or Maya.''

Do you know nothing about history?

The Vikings, the Romans, the French, the Anglo-saxons, the Celts...all have mixed and influenced the genetic mix to start with.

But of course what bothers is the concept that someone who is not white could be English...

Why do you feel reluctant to call yourself English if you are? I am Scottish and quite happy to tell people i am Scottish. Most people I know are the same.

This. No question.

My own daughter comes into this category what else would she be?

My ExH parents came over from Ireland when they were teenagers. They stayed for the rest of their lives. They are now 85+

All their children (now in their 40's & 50's) were born in England (ExH and his siblings). They all met and married English people, and went on to have a lot of children between them. The grandchildren are now in their 20's.

Grandparents never stopped banging on about Ireland. Only made Irish friends. Always went to the Irish Centre for socialising. Probably a bit miffed their kids married English people. Every single sporting event, all the Irish tops and scarves come out. Even the grandchildren (including my own adult kids) identify as Irish. It secretly annoys me if I'm honest. I mean, if England has been good enough to stay for 70 years, at what point do you have a bit of loyalty?

Yes I would

But say I was born in Jamaica, I'm not sure I'd consider myself carribean

So not sure why I think like that?

Ex-BIL’s parents came here as part of the Windrush generation. He was born here. My nieces and nephews are British, as are their children. My little 6 yo great niece has been told to “go home” which really pisses me off. For one she’s teeny tiny and shouldn’t be exposed to that shit and where is she going to? She was born in the same hospital as her grandparents.

Yes I would but their heritage isn’t. They are British citizens and culturally British having grown up here but I’d say their heritage/ethnicity isn’t. I hate this English thing anyway-smacks of nationalism. My parents live in Wales and the way the way they and their friends bang on, you’d think there was something extra special about it. There isn’t-we are all just part of the UK so why not just be British?

A wonderful BBC sketch comedy show Goodness Gracious Me answered this question in 1998. There were 2 Indian couples there, straining to be English. I was, as intended, laughable.

Of course they are not English. They have their own culture and this idiotic insistence that they are English patronises them and belittles them. Why the fuck should you see them as English? They are glorious African, French, Italian, Jewish and Lebanese (the list goes on).

This patronising largesse - oh, let us see them as English, let us allow them to join the English (like fuck they want to do it) shows that those woke people who insist on it, think that their nationalities are of lesser standing and treats them like pets 'oh, he is part of the family, you know'.

Give your head a wobble.

True.

But Britain had a vast Empire until quite recently, so lots of people came from places within that for hundreds of years, particularly via shipping. Same as during the Roman Empire.

And depended on our monarchs and who they married. Catherine of Aragon (first wife of Henry VIII) brought over a contingent of Spanish, some of whom were of African descent (due to ‘the Moors’ rule of Spain). Then the German Georges…

Add waves of refugees: Sephardic Jews from Spain from 1400s, Huguenots from France from 1500s, people fleeing Napoleonic Wars in 1800s, French and Russian revolutions, Vietnamese ‘boat people’.

And of course the Celts themselves were immigrants from Central Europe (Salzberg region of present-day Austria).

I’m glad to hear this, MN have been quick off the mark this time.

''@Whysnothingsimple · Today 09:22Small Talk & Weather: Commenting on the rain, sun, or changing forecast is a national pastime used to break the ice and build rapport. The "Cuppa": Tea is the cornerstone of English social interaction—used to welcome guests, soothe crises, or simply take a break. Queuing: Patience and respect for lines are highly valued; orderly queuing is an unspoken social rule. Dry Sarcasm: A deadpan, sarcastic sense of humor is highly embraced and valued as a form of friendly banter. Food & DrinkPub Culture: The local pub is a neighborhood hub for socializing, eating, and relaxing. Classic Dishes: Staples include the hearty Full English Breakfast, Fish and Chips, and Sunday Roasts (meat, roasted potatoes, vegetables, and Yorkshire pudding). Sports & RecreationFootball (Soccer): The sport is a national obsession. Local matches tie deeply into community and regional identities. National Sports: Modern versions of globally popular sports like cricket, rugby, tennis, and boxing all originated in England. Gardening: Tending to the garden or visiting local historical parks and country estates is a massive part of everyday English leisure. Literary Giants:Writers like William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, and Jane Austen. Music: A powerhouse for global pop and rock culture, producing acts like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Queen...."

That's a real caricature of Englishness I would say.

Also:

• Queen: Freddy Mercury was born in Tanzania.
• Trooping the colour: the royal family has German origins
• Football: the early type of ball games where feet were used came from China
• Fish and chips: fried fish was brought into the culture by Jewish immigrants and the chips originate from Belgium
• Tea: tea drinking in England originated from china arriving in the 1650s via Dutch traders and the East India Company.

That's when you realise how ridiculous all that jingoistic nonsense is.

yes!

I’m white but my kids and husband arent. We were all born here and are all British / English.

Mate.

Not so sure there hasn't been a swift name change.

To the people who say that English is not an ethnicity - how are people born in England to families of predominantly English ancestry supposed to describe themselves? Anglo-Saxon, Jute, Viking etc are historical terms that don't apply to modern people.

Icelanders are mainly descendants of male Norse settlers and enslaved Irish women. Yet nobody would say that because they're of mixed ancestry, there isn't such a thing as Icelandic ethnicity or Icelanders don't have their own distinct culture and history.