Would you say non-white people born & raised in England are English?

[rack909]

Just thought I should hear people’s perspective on this.

Some say it’s an ethnicity, some say it’s a nationality & others say it’s both of them.

I personally think it’s both a Nationality & ethnic group.

If someone says they are from England, they are denoting their nationality as English even if they don’t say it outright. It’s the same thing.

Why do you think it is?

obviously threatened by mass immigration

If it’s obvious, then could you explain why?

Do you think it was threatening for ‘Europeans’ to colonise each other (e.g. England colonising Ireland) and people of other continents (e.g. South Asia, West Africa) and change the language, laws and administration there?

I'm not.

Hope that helps.

Just to let you know, Badger's been banned.

Of course English is an ethnicity, because if it isn't then exactly what ethnicity am I? Born in England, all known relatives as far back as anyone knows all white and English. According to Ancestry.com my heritage is a mix of English, Celtic and Northern European, which means I likely possess one of the least diluted oldest English genetic makeups in the UK. Being from the North England means some of my descendants were likely Viking or Anglo Saxon.

English can be a nationality and an ethnicity at the same time.

I don't know why this is even such a debate. Why does it even matter what part of this massive rock in the middle of space we're born on, or where our predecessors were born, or what colour our skin is? It's ridiculous. We're all human and should have the same rights and opportunities.

That is because there are loads of white Africans. Not everywhere is the same. Not everyone has the citizenship of the country they are living in but lots of people do. It is a very individual thing.

Yes for the most part, ie if their parents live or lived here, settled, and have citizenship.

Not if a parent was working here on a contract when they were born but then they wouldn't consider themselves Engish.

People born to parents in the armed forces are often born and live for a while in other countries but are British, the same goes for diplomats.

I have English friends whose parents or a parent came and settled here from overseas, never gave it much thought; they too have children and grandchildren, of course they are English.

"some English"

Oh the irony. 😂

You again, OP?

Because it meets the criteria. An ethnicity is a group with some recognised shared ancestry, cultural history, usually a common language, usually an ancestral territory.

Which bit do you think the English lack?

The fact English also denotes a civic nationality doesn't change the above: the word has two meanings, closely related but distinct.

Culture isn't an either/or situation. You can have influences from more than one culture or identify with both.

This is just how culture changes over time. The scotch egg apparently has Indian origins and vindaloo was brought to India by the Portuguese. There's nothing perceived as more British than a cup of tea and in reality there's nothing British about it!

I've talked about this with a couple of people, one born here to immigrant parents and one that wasn't born here but has lived here a long time. Both said it can be difficult because you can sometimes feel like you don't fit in anywhere when you have values from both cultures.

They would be Chinese culturally if their parents raised them that way (rather than in expat bubble) and could potentially get citizenship

This is really interesting and timely actually…

I had a young 19 year old charity chugger come to the door this week. He was a lovely lad and we were chatting away.

He told me he’s Ghanaian. I asked him how old he was when he moved to the UK, he said he and his brothers were all born in London. His parents moved here just after they married.

So I asked him doesn’t that make him English or British? And he laughed and said definitely not, his parents would kill him, he is Ghanaian through and through.

He also went on to tell me about all the racism he has faced during his life. From smaller things like his school teachers actually giving him a western name as they wouldn’t couldn’t pronounce his Ghanaian name to being set upon by thugs as a young teen.

All of those experiences growing up has meant that he identifies much more strongly with his Ghanaian roots than his birthplace country, sadly.

Of course they are. If someone is born in Britain, they are British.

English just isn’t an ethnic group. Even ‘white British’ isn’t really. We just have too much history of invasion and immigration going back thousands of years. When you do those ancestry tests, the whitest of white British will have bits of northern European and Southern European and north African, and probably Asian and more.

I completely agree with you and as I said in my post hadn't realised what I was doing.

However, would you, as a white English person, have an English flag in your garden for anything other than football/rugby events.

How do we take our flag back from these awful awful people?

I knew someone would come back at me with a comment about people self identifying as women but your logic is flawed. It is not the same. Being a woman is a simple biological reality. There is no comparable biological reality of being English - it's subjective in a way that sex is not. As the rest of your post perfectly illustrates.

Domicile is not a good determinant. There are undoubtedly people who are "English" - by birth, heritage and identity im addition to having British nationality which would give them the right to reside in England - who choose to be permanently domiciled in another country. They may have no intention of ever coming back to live in the UK, but that does not mean that they cease to be "English".

As for the norms and practices which may be associated with Englishness, who gets to define and select these? There are numerous differences between regions and social classes, as well as differences between individuals. It is subjective. For you, it might be about children on a village green dancing around a maypole, but that is a million miles away from the experience of Englishness that many people in this country might have had.

There are of course differences between cultures and broad cultural norms, but as soon as you start trying to define individuals in terms of those norms, it becomes a very slippery concept. Take your concept of queuing for example. I agree that queuing politely is a cultural norm in England, but there are people who are born and bred here who sometimes jump queues. That does not make those people "not English", it merely makes them rude according to normal English standards of behaviour.

The issue is that you can't pin any definition of Englishness down to simple, measurable criteria. Hence it is subjective and boils down to a question of personal identity.

Depends how far back you want to go.

Cheddar Man predated the Celts by thousands of years. He was in Britain about 10,000 years ago.

DNA testing on him reveals he most likely had intermediate (blue-green) eyes, dark brown or black hair, and dark or dark-to-black skin.

Vikings and Anglo-Saxons were much more recent immigrants.

I think your definition would usually be called German-bred, not German-born.

Agreed. My mother (as she's got older) has become more and more right wing minded (ugh). She had a DNA test done a few years ago and was horrified that she's not Anglo-saxon but rather Northern Europe (very northern). Made me laugh.

As a European Mongrel: Polish, Russian, German, Spanish, Irish and about 37% English, I regard myself as British.

DH: about 87.5% English and 12.5% French, regards himself as English.

We are both white and appear very English (i England); in France, people think we are French.

Why does it have to be non white ?
You can be white but from a country which culturally is different.

I know two people who, to look at them and their siblings, could be Anglo Indian or Greek/ Turkish. They experienced some racism going through school in the 80s. Both tan darker than many people with Asian heritage.
Both had dna test, expecting some interesting results… nope! 100% rural English dna for both!
There could, I guess, be some random Roman Empire soldier back in the mists of time, but who knows.
My SIL however was surprised to discover she was only about 10%. English- the rest was French and Scandinavian.
We have absorbed waves of people over the centuries and what we have in common is culture and customs. To me, that’s what makes Englishness/ Welshness etc.
Also, many people who identify with another culture while living in England may actually find they are more English than they thought when they go to the “ home” country… I’ve seen that a fair bit. Even my husband (who has been in England decades but in no way thinks he’s English) was a bit taken aback by how English he felt on a visit to his home country after 2 decades away.
Some things are more complicated than they seem.

Of course they are, I dont think there's even a debate! My DNiece and DNephew are of mixed ethnicity, White British father and a Chinese mother. They were born here and brought up here and have visited China to see family. They are British why wouldn't they be? They are also Chinese.