Would you say non-white people born & raised in England are English?

[rack909]

Just thought I should hear people’s perspective on this.

Some say it’s an ethnicity, some say it’s a nationality & others say it’s both of them.

I personally think it’s both a Nationality & ethnic group.

If someone says they are from England, they are denoting their nationality as English even if they don’t say it outright. It’s the same thing.

@rack909 IMO, yes, non-white people who are born and raised here are English!' I know a number of non white people whose ethnic origin is Pakistani, Indian, Nigerian, Ghanaian, South African, (and a few more,) who are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and even 5th generation born here, (and quite a few go further back.) And they say things like 'us English do love to moan about the weather don't we?!' I have heard the same from other non-white English who were born and raised here. (Some will say 'us Brits...)

They are 100% as English as any white English person IMO, if not more! Because some white English people have parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, who are Polish, Italian, Greek, Spanish, French, Turkish, Russian, Hungarian, etc etc etc.... and some have parents, and grandparents, and great grandparents who are from even further away than that... Some white English are only 3rd generation English. And some are only 2nd!

I know some (white) English people - in their 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s mostly - who are SO proud to be English (and to have been born in England,) and there's nothing wrong with being proud of it..., But it turns out their mother (born in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1950s,) was Irish, or their father was Polish,, or one set of their grandparents were Italian or Greek, or Turkish.... Again, nothing wrong with that, but they see themselves as more English than non-white people, when many of the non-white people have family roots going back further than they do in England LOL!!!

/

^That’s very interesting, my DB used to like saying he came from Africa when he was a boy. Probably more Gambian than Czech anyway despite having a Czech father!

It’s amazing how different things are for him because he wasn’t born here and the laws at the time prevented my DM from registering him as British because of this. He had to take on our F’s nationality, which happened to be Australian (very long story which isn’t relevant to the discussion).

"Nationality is derived by the laws of the land you were born in and the legal citizenship of your birth parents."

There's legal nationality and just nationality. My legal nationality is British, but my nationality is the sense of national identity is Welsh.

What do they want to call themselves?

Yes, of course, technically they are. They may be more likely to say they are British.

I am white, not born in the UK, but live here now (in England). I consider myself British and my second nationality, as I’m a citizen and have lived here most of my adult life. I wouldn’t say I’m English though, because nowadays that makes you sound like a twat.

Are you my mother in law?

Don't be ridiculous of course they are

Yes, although people usually say British now as heritage is such a mix. English does bring connotations of a long family heritage of ancestors being born in England.
Very rarely would someone traceback all ancestors as being English,mine are Welsh, Scottish, Irish, English, Swedish, and a huge amount of Cornish way back, which wasn't classed as England either from way back 900 years.
The first black and brown people living in england can be traced back to the Roman times. So I am pretty sure they are more English than a lot of white english people who maybe be more of scottish,, welsh, irish or other euaropean heritage.
But yeah of you were born and live in England, then you are English no matter what your heritage.

Yes of course they are . If you really want to go further you can say they are English with (their parents/grandparents country) descent.
I am English with Scottish descent because my father was Scottish but I was born and brought up in England and have never lived in Scotland so I'd never call myself Scottish.

Of course. And you don’t know how much culture from their families they’ve grown up with or how much they’ve travelled, they may have absolutely no connection to the country you’re assuming they ‘should’ be from.

For an extreme example imagine someone brown who was adopted and raised in a white household. The far right would just look at their skin colour and assume they’re not English. Now imagine that Farage (or God forbid Restore) got into power and this person was randomly deported to India! When all they’d known was England, only spoke English and had no connections to the country other than a very faint family tie they’ve never known.

They are not English. They cannot be. The English are a cultural/genetic group.

I am not sure why so many posters deny the existence of the English as a gentic group.

I bet they would not deny the existence of the Yoruba, Han or Maya.

Snap. If my mother heard me describe myself as English she would kick my arse up and down the street.

I have no English blood, I learned about my own Irish history, sing my own Irish songs, respect the Irish flag and stand for the Irish Anthem or Faith of my Fathers.

English people seem to think every other nationality disregards the blood that is in their veins-and has been in their veins for centuries-in order to have the great honour of calling themselves English if they just happen to be born here.

It's bollocks and it really is arrogant to think that everyone dismissed their blood and their culture. Most of us are loyal to that first and foremost.

I married an Irish man who was born in Ireland, My children have no English blood and the flag they respect is the Irish flag.

We're here. We respect England and what it has given us but we are Irish.

Most nationalities think the same-regardless of what they might say in public.

Interesting this keeps getting posted.

Skin colour is completely arbitrary. If you are born here, you're British. If you weren't born here, but you've gone through the citizenship process (sorry I don't even know what it's called) then you're British.

If you're a person born to British citizens while overseas, you are still British, but possibly with dual nationality with the land you were actually born on. If you are a person born in the UK from foreign nationals, then the reverse applies.

I genuinely don't know why in the year 2026 people are looking at other human beings and saying that something about their physical appearance makes them not belong in the country they live in. Human beings are human beings and skin colour or eye shape or whatever other thing that has been discriminated against should make no difference whatsoever.

Yes of course. My ex is British, born of Indian heritage. My children are mixed, of course they are british, born and raised here.

But you’re now moving into TVs effects”if someone claims to be a woman they are”

Being English first of all ties into the legal concept of Domicile. Do you have a domicile in England and Wales? If not, then I would say it’s impossible to be English.

The second is “identification” do you ALSO identify with, understand and practice English, norms, customs and traditions. These are the things that have gone on for centuries, and:or been accepted as the standard and give the English an identity. These are the things that often outsiders can identify as being English before English people, because they’re so embedded in themselves they don’t see it. Now of course not everyone will join in but still people identify it as being English. So people often say British people are polite. Now of course not everyone is, but that is seen as deviating from social norms. So being polite is English even if you aren’t, but most people would agree you should aspire to that.

if you see a picture of a village fete with kids dancing round a maypole you would know that was a picture of somewhere in Britain. If you saw a picture of lots of men on prayer mats most people would not associate that with English culture and so would probably suggest it was a scene from somewhere in the Middle East. A picture of lots of people in a pub, most would guess it was in Britain, if it was a picture of an American diner , people would guess America, even though you would find plenty of places that look like English Pubs in America and lots of American style diners in England. No one would then go on to say America had a “pub culture”

Try jumping a queue in England you would get a different response to say jumping a queue in say Brazil

Often cultural norms are unspoken as they don’t need discussing until someone breaks them

I know some (white) English people - in their 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s mostly - who are SO proud to be English (and to have been born in England,) and there's nothing wrong with being proud of it..., But it turns out their mother (born in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1950s,) was Irish, or their father was Polish,, or one set of their grandparents were Italian or Greek, or Turkish.... Again, nothing wrong with that, but they see themselves as more English than non-white people, when many of the non-white people have family roots going back further than they do in England LOL!!!

I’m in that boat, but I certainly don’t see it that way at all. I mostly call myself British.

Yes absolutely they are British or English depending on which term they prefer. I dont buy into John Swinneys "new scots" aka people that moved to scotland recently, who are not Scottish born and who have no Scottish roots. If they settle in Scotland and have kids in that country there children are Scottish. However they still orginate from whatever country the are native to and most are quick to tell you that.

the question is are they English?

The terms British and English aren’t interchangeable

Yes of course they are

was Tony Cozier who was born, lived in and represented Barbados and also white not a Barbadian?

OP has stated that they are not white, so I assume they are looking at this from their pov.

What a fascinating thread and the @rack909 has done well in their phrasing. Until reading this I hadn't noticed the change in my behaviour. I, like others have posted, would be reluctant, nowadays, to call myself English exactly because I am white and because of the far right's claim over it.

I feel the thread runs close to the mark especially given the march, but has been a fascinating read nonetheless. Thank you.

@aurpod1980 I think you are over-problematising this.

If your friend of Pakistani ancestry was born and raised in Croatia, they’d certainly be Croatian. Would they be a Croat though?

But with England the two words are the same (ethnicity and citizenship), so both answers are defensible depending on what is meant.

I think anybody born in England is English. This immature embarrassment at being English is ridiculous.

Actually I am thinking about this more now.
If I went to live in say spain or dubai or Trinidad for example with my british partner and had a child who was born there, would that child be Spanish? Or Arabic? Or Trinidiadian?

Thinking about it, if that child then was raised there, with a passport from that country, and adopted the culture, went to local school there etc, then yes I think they could say they they were 'Spanish'.. but I don't think they could say they were Arabic could they? Maybe if they fully adopted the culture they could but its more of an ethnicity isnt it than a citizenship?? Trinidad for example.. Im not actually sure...

Maybe someone of other countries can also answer this.. when would someone be able to say they were Spanish or Arabic for example in your country??

Yes

It depends. Those things are legal.

If the country a child is born in recognises them as a citizen, then yes, they are. If the country doesn't, then they aren't. I'm not arsed enough to google each country you've mentioned tbh but my understanding is that the USA says you're American if you're born there (or they did - not sure how that's working out now) and the UK doesn't. Or maybe it's the other way round.