Did we learn nothing from Covid?

[PistachioTiramisu]

I cannot believe that the people who were on board the cruise ship and who have contracted/been exposed to the hantavirus are all being repatriated! Why on earth were they not all kept on the ship until medical personnel were sure they were not infected? I don't care if they wanted to get home to their families - they are a potential danger. So now we have people in France, the UK and I think Japan who have travelled with other people back to their own country. It's madness.,

I think you have made my point...

Not only is it not unprecedented, it’s not even the only current fatal cruise ship disease outbreak.

What I like to stay is accurate. Having actually worked on the NHS frontline during COVID, I have seen first hand the importance of avoiding baseless speculation and ghoulish catastrophising.

There have been 6 confirmed and 2 probable cases linked to this particular cluster. There are over 100,000 cases a year generally, including many in Europe. Why are you so sure that these 6 cases are more dangerous than all the others and people need to be so very afraid, if not because you want to sensationalise.

The difference between say France and the UK (and US)?

I think I have made that point about three times, already. Maybe more.

"France has initiated reinforced quarantine measures for individuals identified as contacts of confirmed hantavirus cases. As of May 11, all 22 contact cases in the country are being placed in hospital-based isolation, in line with health protocols recommending a 42-day quarantine period. The move follows a government declaration by Health Minister Sébastien Lecornu that "all contact cases, without exception," would enter reinforced quarantine."

France Begins Reinforced Quarantines Amid Hanta... | France in English

Other examples, from the Guardian a few days ago:

"Greece’s health ministry said a male evacuee will spend 45 days in mandatory hospital quarantine in Athens. Authorities said the man will be placed in a specially prepared negative-pressure chamber at Attikon university hospital."

"In Spain, 14 citizens will be placed in biosafety isolation beds at the Gómez Ulla military hospital in Madrid."

In Australia, three weeks minimum compulsory quarantine in a quarantine facility.

And so on.

“Current evidence does not suggest a highly transmissible pandemic scenario.

ANDV transmission dynamics differ fundamentally from highly transmissible respiratory viruses such as measles virus, influenza A viruses or SARS-CoV-2. Current evidence does not suggest efficient sustained transmission through casual community contact.“

from your report from the hantavirus society…..

I obviously understand that other countries are doing isolation differently. I don’t require detailed information about their cadence.

the countries you detail are imposing mandatory isolation in a hospital for the period.

in the uk, they are imposing a 3 day hospital isolation and then further isolation for the period at home.

so what is the difference, aside from the uk not having a legally enforced hospital isolation?

because, provided the 22 people complete their self isolation at home, as directed, there is no Difference in the outcomes.

If they don’t compete the isolation, it’s the same as a Spanish patient leaving the hospital.

so what’s the difference?

I don't think anyone is suggesting there will be a global pandemic. But with the haphazard response of some countries and governments and the WHO downplaying the possibility of airborne transmission unless people are "close contacts", which was shown to be not true in the 2018-2019 outbreak, it is inevitable the world will be playing a game of stamp out the small forest fires as they erupt with this for some time.

The people with family living in their home are being isolated in special accommodation.

Oh, my god. They are not just "doing it differently".

There is a vast difference between quarantining people in a secure facility to asking them politely to stay home and be good.

Being in a hospital quarantine, where staff are masked etc, and visitors unlikely or else suitably protected, it means the spread is completely contained.

Expecting people to stay home, and not pop out for a carton of milk, or have visitors, or throw a party, or not attend their goddaughter's wedding etc etc, has been shown to be a fool's errand. Obviously some people will take the request very seriously, but others won't.

They are 22 people. You might think they’re feckless idiots, but that’s nothing more than a cynical bias and a contrary personality.

eta- obviously a Spanish person can easily decide they’ve had enough and leave the hospital. Patients do this every day.

they only difference is there are legal implications for them

eta- obviously a Spanish person can easily decide they’ve had enough and leave the hospital. Patients do this every day.

Mandatory means they will not be allowed to simply leave.

Mandatory quarantine means the government concerned understands (a) human nature, and (b) is keen to prevent this developing into a full-on outbreak.

I think you’re missing the point

People break the law every day. You seem to be under the impression mandatory means a guarantee people will comply. Surely actual Covid demonstrated this was not the case.

the only difference between the non compliances is that when it is mandatory, are legal implications.

compare to people legally detained under the mental health act (although infinitely more serious) they abscond every day.
They are returned to hospital by the police. But the point is, they still went. The outcome is the same.

I think you are missing the point. People in mandatory quarantine understand their situation, and why they are in mandatory quarantine. They are not able to wander about the facility, or leave - they would be obstructed in their movements. It has nothing to do with legal implications, as you keep insisting.

Somebody ringing you on your mobile and asking, "Are you still at home?" is not the same.

You seem very upset that posters have pointed out that the UK (and US) response is inadequate. Most people really want this to be a controlled and brief outbreak, in a limited setting - which is why mandatory quarantine in very delineated facilities is the general go-to for most countries.

What you’re saying isn’t true. Of course people can abscond from hospital- how do you think people do this everyday?

its also nor true that the extend of uk support is a mobile phone call

you are determined that the uk should behave like of countries for the sake of it- with no evidence base- and that we should be legislating unnecessarily .

you are also convinced 22 people can’t be trusted to isolate, with no evidence.

you Advocate restrictive legislation which is unnecessary (some would say- for the sake of it because you- with no evidence - think it’s a good idea) Which is not the way the UK

They are not just "in hospital".

Clearly you won't give up on this. Do you need a nice cup of tea in a union jack mug, perhaps?

Of course they are in hospital.

do you have any knowledge of how frequently sectioned patients abscond from both secure hospitals and police guard?

I’m sure it makes you feel good to shut down mildly intelligent conversation with a thinly veiled reform voter accusation, but it’s making me cringe and it’s a bit like you’ve only been on the internet a short time.

"a thinly veiled reform voter accusation"... I have no idea what you're talking about.

They are not in regular hospitals.

Here is where they will be quarantined in Australia. 43k away from Perth.

Bullsbrook Centre for National Resilience to be used to quarantine passengers from hantavirus ship - ABC News

I think all the people who insist that people won’t isolate must say that because they themselves wouldn’t.

People really will bend over backwards to defend the UK government's inadequant response to this situation, while knowing next to nothing about it.

Agree

its 22 people. Why do you think any of them are minority who will rebel against instruction, despite the natural very serious public humiliation and public health consequences?

whether you’re a rebel or not (and do you reckon a wildlife expedition cruise is the natural place for these feckless rebels?) do you think you would risk the might of public backlash for breaking your quarantine and spreading the virus?

Oh, absolutely. Nobody will rebel.

This article covers two women from the cruise who just travelled about after disembarking in April, even after the deaths by hantavirus were announced, one of whom attended a conference in Hanoi:

"That New York resident’s journey took her directly from the MV Hondius to an early May global conference for extreme travelers in Vietnam, with the trip involving at least four flights, a city bus shuttle, a stay in an airport hotel and a long boat ride, before she mingled with 150 guests at the conference..."

"...another American woman who embarked on an epic adventure after becoming a hantavirus “contact case,” reported by Radio New Zealand, added to concern among some infectious disease doctors that these early ship departees are not self-isolating in a way that is needed to contain Andes virus. That woman reportedly flew from San Francisco to Tahiti before taking a long boat ride to tiny, isolated Pitcairn Island, without alerting anyone. Authorities then found out she was there, through unknown means, and forcibly quarantined her.

Also this: "Although the virus is hopefully not as contagious as COVID-19, doctors like Joseph Allen, a professor of exposure assessment science at Harvard University, have been raising the alarm that a study of a 2018 Andes outbreak in Argentina shows the virus can be transmitted by relatively brief casual encounters in shared public spaces, and that the messaging from the WHO and CDC may be under-preparing everyone for how to extinguish transmission.

“Prior outbreaks on land have lasted 4 waves of transmission. Because the first wave was on a ship, and we are actively tracking passengers and contacts, we can stop this current outbreak with good isolation and quarantine protocols so we’re not chasing cases around the country for the next several weeks,” Allen wrote on X Tuesday.

The Andes virus is a strain of hantavirus that can cause a severe respiratory disease, called Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome, and is the only known hantavirus type to transmit between humans, rather than only from rodents. There are no existing specific treatments or vaccines and the virus can be severe in people of all ages."

A second woman jet-setted around the globe after leaving the hantavirus-plagued vessel, without anyone noticing

I can certainly see that if it was day 40 of a 6 week quarantine and a child/grandchild's birthday party was on day 41 and they had felt well throughout and was still feeling well, the temptation to go to that party or have the party held at their quarantine house would be too much for many people.

They would probably be questioning how serious the risk could possibly be if they hadn't actually been locked in a secure unit.

Were not was

What kind of person would expect that they have to be locked in a secure unit before they realised the situation was that serious?!
locked in a secure unit!!?

Who could agree that deprivation of individual liberty is a proportionate response to this? Don’t you value your liberty? This is a worrying discussion tbh.

I'm sorry I don't really understand that jumble of questions and I'm not sure you understand human nature very well.

Don’t you? Seems fairly straight forward. You are very lax with the states ability to remove your freedom if you are arguing it should be done in this scenario