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Did we learn nothing from Covid?

161 replies

PistachioTiramisu · 11/05/2026 18:27

I cannot believe that the people who were on board the cruise ship and who have contracted/been exposed to the hantavirus are all being repatriated! Why on earth were they not all kept on the ship until medical personnel were sure they were not infected? I don't care if they wanted to get home to their families - they are a potential danger. So now we have people in France, the UK and I think Japan who have travelled with other people back to their own country. It's madness.,

OP posts:
Existentialistic · 14/05/2026 09:20

OhGoshNotAgain · 14/05/2026 09:04

John Campbell is now wholly discredited, so don’t set any store by him. He spread covid misinformation, including advocating the use of ivermectin (an antiparasitic) to treat the virus.

The information is from Dr Clare Craig, an eminent pathologist, not Campbell himself.

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:20

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:15

The Andes virus is in all excreted human bodily fluids, including human urine and excrement, saliva, blood, tears, and the droplets expelled through coughing, sneezing, and speaking.

“Experts at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) have explained how the spread of the virus differs to those that commonly spread between humans, such as flu (influenza) or COVID-19.
Below, Professor Michael Marks, NIHR Research Professor at LSHTM and Honorary Consultant in Infectious Diseases at the Hospital for Tropical Diseases at University College London Hospital, helps answer common questions around the hantavirus outbreak.
What is hantavirus and how does it spread?
Hantaviruses are a group of viruses carried by rodents, such as mice and rats. Rodents infected with hantavirus do not usually show signs of illness. People usually become infected by breathing in air contaminated with virus particles from rodent urine, droppings or saliva.
Most hantaviruses do not spread between humans. One strain, called the Andes hantavirus, can spread from person-to-person but this is extremely rare as it requires very close contact. It does not spread easily like other viruses known to infect humans, such as flu or COVID-19.
Professor Marks said: “Hantaviruses are actually a family of viruses. The primary mode of transmission of all of these viruses is through exposure to secretions (saliva, urine, faeces) of specific species of rats. The rats are normally well. People inhale these secretions which results in the virus getting into the lungs and blood stream.
“This specific outbreak has been identified as being caused by Andes virus which is one of the causes of Hantavirus cardio-pulmonary syndrome. This is the only hantavirus currently known to have described cases of human-to-human transmission. Even for Andes virus this is rare – i.e. most cases are still caused by exposure to rats and their secretions.”
Where is hantavirus usually found?
Different strains of hantavirus can be found in some areas of Europe, Africa and Asia. The Andes strain, which is responsible for the current outbreak, is usually found in rural parts of South America.
Rodents in the UK do not carry Andes hantavirus. Only Seoul hantavirus, which does not transmit from person to person, has ever been identified in the UK.
What are the symptoms of hantavirus and how is it treated?
According to the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), symptoms of hantavirus infection can include fever, extreme fatigue, muscle aches, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea or shortness of breath. Symptoms usually appear between two to four weeks after being exposed to the virus.
There is currently no specific treatment or vaccine, but hospitals are trained to help care for those who become unwell.
Is there a wider risk to the UK or other countries from this outbreak?
Although hantavirus is a serious infection and can be fatal without prompt treatment, the risk to the wider UK population is very low.
Hantavirus does not spread easily through everyday social contact like walking in public spaces, shops, workplaces or schools. It requires prolonged close contact with a person who is visibly unwell.
Professor Marks said: “In the current outbreak it is likely that the initial cases were indeed caused by exposure to rats. Then it seems plausible that in the context of a cruise ship – where people are in very close proximity – that there has been some onward transmission to other individuals. Human to human transmission is likely due to prolonged and close exposure to someone who is very unwell with a high level of virus in their respiratory secretions.
“The incubation period for Hantaviruses can be quite long (several weeks). As noted above, in the rare cases where human to human transmission has occurred this is in the context of people who are unwell and who have sustained close contact with other people. These individuals from the ship are well – we do not even know they have Hantavirus infection, only that they have plausibly been exposed.”

What is hantavirus? How is it transmitted and what are the symptoms? – UK Health Security Agency

Hantaviruses are a group of viruses carried by rodents such as mice and rats, transmitted by their droppings and urine. Hantaviruses are present throughout the world. They can be found in some areas of Europe, Africa, Asia and South America.

https://ukhsa.blog.gov.uk/2026/05/05/what-is-hantavirus-how-is-it-transmitted-and-what-are-the-symptoms/

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:21

Existentialistic · 14/05/2026 09:20

The information is from Dr Clare Craig, an eminent pathologist, not Campbell himself.

Well, she's wrong. She is hardly an expert on the Andes Hantavirus, and what she says is not supported by the studies of those who are.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

ThreadGuardDog · 14/05/2026 09:25

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:08

"Passengers will be asked to isolate for up to 45 days, with regular testing and ongoing care provided by UKHSA and NHS teams."

UKHSA update on the hantavirus cruise ship outbreak - GOV.UK

The operative word here is "asked".

I live in the area immediately adjacent to the hospital in which they were quarantined. Local residents here are very concerned and rightly so. Detailed information was provided as to what happens on discharge from hospital. The UKHSA oversees onward travel, ensuring public health protection protocols are followed, and monitors/provides support throughout the self isolation period, along with input from appropriate NHS services. UKHSA also confirmed that all passengers quarantined at the hospital have tested negative for the virus. I really don’t think it’s a matter of ‘off you go, we’re trusting you not to pop out to the shops or visit your granny for 45 days’.

Existentialistic · 14/05/2026 09:25

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:21

Well, she's wrong. She is hardly an expert on the Andes Hantavirus, and what she says is not supported by the studies of those who are.

Science is rarely a dichotomy though is it? (Not as simple as right/wrong). This will be my last post on the topic. Time will tell I guess…..wishing everyone good health!

ThreadGuardDog · 14/05/2026 09:26

catipuss · 14/05/2026 08:54

You could catch it tomorrow from rats in the UK the virus is in rats all over the world. There are reasons we don't want rats in our houses and potential diseases such as this virus are one. Chances of catching it from another person are slim to none.

Not for the Andean strain, specifically responsible for this outbreak. Carried by long tailed Pygmy rice rats living in the forests throughout South America.

winnieanddaisy · 14/05/2026 09:26

Some passengers were admitted to a hospital in Liverpool until they can be checked out . I would think this is happening to all the other travellers.

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:26

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:21

Well, she's wrong. She is hardly an expert on the Andes Hantavirus, and what she says is not supported by the studies of those who are.

So the eminent pathologist, the WHO, and the expert from the school of tropical medicine are all wrong. But you, some random on mumsnet are right? Got it.

user3769863490 · 14/05/2026 09:27

I am friends with a lot of clever academic medical types. One of them is in contagious disease research. They say the biggest threat that Covid left is that if there’s another virus in the immediate future people won’t be so willing to obey lockdowns and restrictions as we were in 2020, and next time it might be a lot worse!

I don’t think this is it though - I understand you need pretty much intimate contact to catch this particular virus.

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:28

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:20

“Experts at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) have explained how the spread of the virus differs to those that commonly spread between humans, such as flu (influenza) or COVID-19.
Below, Professor Michael Marks, NIHR Research Professor at LSHTM and Honorary Consultant in Infectious Diseases at the Hospital for Tropical Diseases at University College London Hospital, helps answer common questions around the hantavirus outbreak.
What is hantavirus and how does it spread?
Hantaviruses are a group of viruses carried by rodents, such as mice and rats. Rodents infected with hantavirus do not usually show signs of illness. People usually become infected by breathing in air contaminated with virus particles from rodent urine, droppings or saliva.
Most hantaviruses do not spread between humans. One strain, called the Andes hantavirus, can spread from person-to-person but this is extremely rare as it requires very close contact. It does not spread easily like other viruses known to infect humans, such as flu or COVID-19.
Professor Marks said: “Hantaviruses are actually a family of viruses. The primary mode of transmission of all of these viruses is through exposure to secretions (saliva, urine, faeces) of specific species of rats. The rats are normally well. People inhale these secretions which results in the virus getting into the lungs and blood stream.
“This specific outbreak has been identified as being caused by Andes virus which is one of the causes of Hantavirus cardio-pulmonary syndrome. This is the only hantavirus currently known to have described cases of human-to-human transmission. Even for Andes virus this is rare – i.e. most cases are still caused by exposure to rats and their secretions.”
Where is hantavirus usually found?
Different strains of hantavirus can be found in some areas of Europe, Africa and Asia. The Andes strain, which is responsible for the current outbreak, is usually found in rural parts of South America.
Rodents in the UK do not carry Andes hantavirus. Only Seoul hantavirus, which does not transmit from person to person, has ever been identified in the UK.
What are the symptoms of hantavirus and how is it treated?
According to the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), symptoms of hantavirus infection can include fever, extreme fatigue, muscle aches, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea or shortness of breath. Symptoms usually appear between two to four weeks after being exposed to the virus.
There is currently no specific treatment or vaccine, but hospitals are trained to help care for those who become unwell.
Is there a wider risk to the UK or other countries from this outbreak?
Although hantavirus is a serious infection and can be fatal without prompt treatment, the risk to the wider UK population is very low.
Hantavirus does not spread easily through everyday social contact like walking in public spaces, shops, workplaces or schools. It requires prolonged close contact with a person who is visibly unwell.
Professor Marks said: “In the current outbreak it is likely that the initial cases were indeed caused by exposure to rats. Then it seems plausible that in the context of a cruise ship – where people are in very close proximity – that there has been some onward transmission to other individuals. Human to human transmission is likely due to prolonged and close exposure to someone who is very unwell with a high level of virus in their respiratory secretions.
“The incubation period for Hantaviruses can be quite long (several weeks). As noted above, in the rare cases where human to human transmission has occurred this is in the context of people who are unwell and who have sustained close contact with other people. These individuals from the ship are well – we do not even know they have Hantavirus infection, only that they have plausibly been exposed.”

I'm not sure what your point is. This is not regular Hantivirus. From the CNN article I linked earlier:

"In most cases, hantaviruses result in what’s called a dead-end infection: A human gets infected after contact with animal droppings but doesn’t pass it on to anyone else.

Andes virus is an exception, however. It can spread between people, giving it the potential to spark outbreaks."

During the last large outbreak:

"Through careful investigative work, scientists determined that the first patient in Epuyen attended a birthday party on November 3, 2018, the same day he ran a fever. During the 90 minutes he was at the party, he infected five others, including two people sitting roughly a foot from him at the same table and two people who were sitting roughly 4 feet away from him at neighboring tables. The fifth person to catch the virus crossed paths with the patient only briefly on their way to the restroom."

What doctors know about how the Andes hantavirus spreads | CNN

ThreadGuardDog · 14/05/2026 09:28

winnieanddaisy · 14/05/2026 09:26

Some passengers were admitted to a hospital in Liverpool until they can be checked out . I would think this is happening to all the other travellers.

All of the passengers repatriated to the UK were admitted to Arrowe Park hospital - including those initially asked to self isolate.

venus7 · 14/05/2026 09:28

ThisDandyWriter · 14/05/2026 06:57

Between 1.4-2.6m died of Covid in China so all that isolating didn’t do much good really , did it?

You know the figure of deaths had there been no isolating?

Backedoffhackedoff · 14/05/2026 09:30

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:20

From the Telegraph:

"British passengers on the cruise ship struck by hantavirus will not be legally required to self-isolate when released from hospital in the next few days, it has emerged.
The 20 passengers who returned to the UK on Sunday after being evacuated from the MV Hondius are being asked to isolate for six weeks, but this will be “voluntary” rather than mandated by law, say health chiefs.
The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) has a legal power to enforce quarantine and it is understood that UK public health officials have been debating for days whether they should activate this power under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, the same legislation used during the Covid-19 pandemic.
However, health bosses will activate the legal power only if passengers do not co-operate and public safety is threatened, said a Whitehall source.
The law provides ministers and officials with sweeping legal powers over individuals, groups and premises to enforce a de facto lockdown if it is deemed necessary.
Lawyers told The Telegraph that the UKHSA could apply either directly to a magistrate or to ministers if it felt that legal force was required, as happened during Covid-19.
Ministers can grant immediate powers to detain and isolate people who pose a threat to public health, but would have to go to Parliament within 28 days to extend any such licence, said Adam Wagner KC, a barrister at Doughty Street Chambers."

But your only complaint here is that there aren’t legal implications for “breaking” isolation.

this isn’t actually a strong point is it? It’s 22 people, being monitored and supported, who know how serious this is and know the public humiliation and public health co sequences of them breaking isolation. Why do we need a law?

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:31

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:28

I'm not sure what your point is. This is not regular Hantivirus. From the CNN article I linked earlier:

"In most cases, hantaviruses result in what’s called a dead-end infection: A human gets infected after contact with animal droppings but doesn’t pass it on to anyone else.

Andes virus is an exception, however. It can spread between people, giving it the potential to spark outbreaks."

During the last large outbreak:

"Through careful investigative work, scientists determined that the first patient in Epuyen attended a birthday party on November 3, 2018, the same day he ran a fever. During the 90 minutes he was at the party, he infected five others, including two people sitting roughly a foot from him at the same table and two people who were sitting roughly 4 feet away from him at neighboring tables. The fifth person to catch the virus crossed paths with the patient only briefly on their way to the restroom."

What doctors know about how the Andes hantavirus spreads | CNN

That’s literally a press release about the current outbreak, from an expert in tropical diseases. But you do you. Cling to your news article, and sensationalise all you want. 🤷‍♀️

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:33

Backedoffhackedoff · 14/05/2026 09:30

But your only complaint here is that there aren’t legal implications for “breaking” isolation.

this isn’t actually a strong point is it? It’s 22 people, being monitored and supported, who know how serious this is and know the public humiliation and public health co sequences of them breaking isolation. Why do we need a law?

No, I'm not talking about legal implications.

I am pointing out that pretty well every other country involved in repatriating the passengers is enforcing mandatory quarantine. But not the UK. Or the US (where one woman immediately broke requested quarantine and flew off to Tahiti).

Feis123 · 14/05/2026 09:34

The whole history of the world could be named 'People learn nothing. Ever.' Wars, nastiness, lust for money, betrayals, lack of gratitude, actions have consequences' - naaah, centuries of the same shit. People learn nothing.

Feis123 · 14/05/2026 09:36

And health professionals lean nothing either. Read the story of Pauline Cafferkey. You could not make it up.

thestudio · 14/05/2026 09:36

Are.. are we the thick ones?

I had this feeling constantly during Covid. So many opportunities to prevent the spread missed. So much not investigated. Basic stuff like 'cotton masks do not work, you must wear [whatever the medical grade mask was].

thestudio · 14/05/2026 09:38

Feis123 · 14/05/2026 09:36

And health professionals lean nothing either. Read the story of Pauline Cafferkey. You could not make it up.

Yes, also constantly amazed by how little CPD health professionals have to do, and how little curiosity so many of them seem to have about research that's not in NICE yet but has been bubbling away quite loudly for decades.

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:38

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:31

That’s literally a press release about the current outbreak, from an expert in tropical diseases. But you do you. Cling to your news article, and sensationalise all you want. 🤷‍♀️

No, it is a general statement about Hantavirus, which ignores or is ignorant of what the investigations into the 2018-2018 Andes virus outbreak uncovered, and what the International Hantavirus Society has put out recently.

Statement from the International Hantavirus Society and members of the international hantavirus research and clinical community regarding Andes virus transmission and the current outbreak investigation

Sorry for linking an easy summary of the discoveries from the last outbreak from CNN, must be so hard for you.

ShizeItsWeegie · 14/05/2026 09:47

Coronavirus was a shit show because the politicians that made the rules didn't understand even the most basic stuff about how different viruses work and didn't follow the advice from medical staff/epidemiologists. It was clear Boris Johnson didn't have even the most basic knowledge.

The issues here are that protocols were not followed early on because either no-one knew that it was a virus or what the virus was or worse by a country mile was prepared to force people to isolate. The wife of the man that died of Hv was allowed to travel with other people whilst sick and likely knowing what she had was what killed her DH but seeing getting home more important than the health of others.

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:50

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:38

No, it is a general statement about Hantavirus, which ignores or is ignorant of what the investigations into the 2018-2018 Andes virus outbreak uncovered, and what the International Hantavirus Society has put out recently.

Statement from the International Hantavirus Society and members of the international hantavirus research and clinical community regarding Andes virus transmission and the current outbreak investigation

Sorry for linking an easy summary of the discoveries from the last outbreak from CNN, must be so hard for you.

Look, it’s fine - some people get off on the drama of trying inflame a perceived crisis and you’re clearly one of those people. Like I said, you do you 🤷‍♀️

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:55

PortSalutPlease · 14/05/2026 09:50

Look, it’s fine - some people get off on the drama of trying inflame a perceived crisis and you’re clearly one of those people. Like I said, you do you 🤷‍♀️

And some people like to stay studiously unaware, I get it.

Pardon me for having an interest in an unprecidented situation.

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:56

JustMyView13 · 14/05/2026 04:53

Some of the top scientists who warned the WHO that they believed Covid was airborne in the early days, have formally raised concerns about wanting Hantavirus to be treated as airborne until proven otherwise. They cite a 2018 outbreak where people contracted the disease despite no direct and sustained contact with the infected. It’s been documented in (I believe) the BMJ & peer reviewed.

I don’t think reflecting on the WHO and governments approach to this outbreak, particularly in the light of experts coming forward and raising concerns, is scaremongering.

Yes, here:

Hantavirus outbreak should reset WHO’s default approach to airborne risk | The BMJ

Backedoffhackedoff · 14/05/2026 09:57

silverrobot · 14/05/2026 09:33

No, I'm not talking about legal implications.

I am pointing out that pretty well every other country involved in repatriating the passengers is enforcing mandatory quarantine. But not the UK. Or the US (where one woman immediately broke requested quarantine and flew off to Tahiti).

mandatory quarantine has to be backed by law, otherwise it’s not mandatory.

so your issue is that there aren’t legal implications for breaking it.

otherwise, what’s your point? What’s the difference between (say) France and the uk apart from lack of legal implications (which would only be a fine)