Can we give up one of our children?

[pinkstargaze]

I don’t know where else to turn, this is about my 8 year old.
We have 3 Children the eldest and youngest are lovely but the middle child is making life so hard with her violence towards us.

She comes home from school and shouts and screams and hits me and her siblings, she calls me names, swears at me and won’t listen to a word I say just says shut up and covers her ears if I speak to her.
Her siblings are frightened of her, I’m frightened of her I know as soon as I say anything I will be hurt, she hits me in the back and it takes my breath away, she kicks me and tells me to kill myself, slams doors throws things, screams at the top of her voice by which time the other children are crying and I just can’t do this anymore.

I don’t want this for my other children who are so well behaved, we don’t swear or raise voices, we are just a nice family who all get along and respect each other apart from her, she makes everyone miserable, destroys our home and everyone’s belongings.
It is embarrassing, friends won’t have her around their children and even our own family don’t want her near her cousins because it always ends in tears.
I don’t want to live in a home where I’m scared to tell my child off because she’ll hit me, I don’t want to share my home with someone who laughs and points at me with delight when anything goes wrong, or revels in her siblings misfortune and I don’t want to be called names and be sworn at in my own home or have my things ruined by someone who doesn’t care about me or my things.
I don’t want this to be my life and I definitely don’t want it for her siblings.
I feel strongly that for sake of the family’s safety she needs to go into care but I don’t want to lose all my children.
Is it even a thing to put one child into foster care and not the others?

She is waiting to be assessed but the waiting time is long, the school doesn’t see this as she’s masking all day until she gets home but it’s every day.
I have a lovely family, a lovely husband and we have 2 other children who are lovely but she is making our lives hell and our home uncomfortable and I know I just don’t have what it takes to live with her, I am burnt out and feel so guilty to the other children.
Dh does his best when he’s home but we are all so worn down and miserable, we just can’t carry on like this.
It has broken us both and the others are suffering. I genuinely can’t do this but I so love being a mum to the others who I carry on for.

The number of times I've tried to get CAMHS to expedite an assessment. In my area they simply say no. It's dreadful really. I wish social services did have that kind of influence but you were extremely lucky.

Op people have told you to educate yourself in low demand parenting and check out Naomi Fisher. I’d add contact CAPA First Response, they can coach you on the phone. Life changing, free service, they understand.
assume she is autistic, start learning everything you can. There is a massive amount of great quality content

I'd definitely think about PDA and removal of ALL demands at home, except ones for safety such as no GBH against your siblings (I wish I was joking, but that was one of our boundaries). Look up the coke bottle effect, it's real.
I'd also contact the council and ask for a child in need assessment from social services. It's not a magic bullet but it can help to open doors. For me the most useful thing was regular meetings with school and social services - including with my other kid's school as it was affecting him and they were able to offer additional pastoral care.
Getting social services involved is a double edged sword. You will need to have regular meetings with them, go on parenting courses (only take away the useful things from these, many strategies won't work with a PDA kid), and show you are actively cooperating. They won't take your kids away if it's you reaching out and asking for help.
Also, to warn you. School is probably causing the issues. Be prepared for them to be unable to go to school at some point in the future, it's called EBSA (emotionally based school avoidance). It can take years to get them back into school. It can be done though. At 8 my boy was wrecking the house, I had bite marks and bruises all over my body, his brother used to barricade himself in his room and I thought we were heading for prison. School didn't see any problems. Then after the summer holidays he snapped at school, refused to work and attacked the teachers. He was permanently excluded in October, so 2 months from he's fine in school to expelled.
It took 3 years of him put of school (with EOTIS and a tutor for some of it) and lots of fighting the LA but he's now in a therapeutic special school. He won't get the qualifications he is capable of, but he's happy and doesn't beat me up any more.
There is light at the end of the tunnel, but it takes time. I used to plan how I could put him in care, now at 14 he's a delight to be around.

A good school would be interested in after-school behaviour. I would take some videos in secret, book an appointment with the SENCO and explain what's happening after school. At the very least this might motivate them to support the Autism assessment but ideally you need extra support for her in school.

DS is my youngest, he has Autism and ADHD and he's not generally violent but he is very destructive and challenging. I'll be honest and say that I use screens as respite. He has it in the car coming home from school because he used to pull my hair while I was driving, then has about 1.5 hours at home while I get stuff done, make dinner, he eats etc. Then straight into the bath, then DH or I give him our full attention until bedtime. We usually work in some physical activity to tire him out. I don't generally need to use it in the mornings but it makes things so much more manageable in the afternoons.

It is v weird that you haven’t cried in years.
have you modelled to your child ways to show emotion that are less destructive?

I work for my local council, not in social services, and my desk is right next to the 'Early Help' desk which is where referrals come in for families who are need of support but are not yet on receipt of a Child in Need or Child Protection Plan. You can absolutely refer yourself for such support and it is very unlikely they would take your children away from you. This would only happen if there were serious concerns regarding neglect, risk of harm or abuse. What you've described doesn't sound like this, you sound like a family in desperate need of help and intervention of support.
It is much more likely a support worker would be allocated to come up with a support plan/provide respite. I have heard of families in a similar position to what you are describing so you are not alone. It is worth looking into what this service looks like in your area.

There's a book on Amazon called The Explosive Child.

It might help, it's for exactly this sort of child. I hope things improve for you OP.

Sounds like your DD is totally overwhelmed by the end of the school day and then lashes out badly at everyone after holding it all in.

Is there any way she can a) have breaks at school to self regulate/be alone/zone out in some way and b) find something regulating for her straight after school.

If school don't believe you could you video or audio record some of what goes on at home so they understand?

Video some of the behaviour/ aftermath and take some still photos.

You can try your GP to ask about a CAMHS referral separate to any autism assessment referral. It's worth explaining the risk to the other children of being around their sibling.

You and your husband could consider living in separate houses / flats - one with the 8 year old one with the other kids. That's financially difficult.

You can apply for an EHC Needs Assessment - yes you can do this whilst waiting for a diagnosis.

You can apply for an assessment of her social care needs and your needs as carers.

You can force the issue: take her to school, (perhaps pay for her to stay at after-school club so you can collect the other children at the usual time) then write to your LA saying that you are placing your daughter in s.20 accommodation and won't be collecting her from school as you are exhausted and unable to care for her at present and that caring for her at home without any support is posing a risk to your other children. Once she's not been collected from school the LA will be obliged to find her accommodation - usually with foster carers. You would need to earn grandparents/ aunts / family friends in advance because they'd be the first place the LA will try (may be worth trying then out in advance so these people acquire stories of their own about the problems / you find a bit of a solution).

Putting her in s.20 accommodation isn't the same thing as giving her up - you retain parental responsibility and can remove her from it at any time. It is used like this by parents of SEN kids who are at breaking point. I do advise talking to one of the specialist lawyers first.

I have to say I agree with this. Crying in front of your kids is normal. It shows them we are imperfect and have feelings too. She needs to see more of your pain and how it affects you. Perhaps you've been doing things like the naughty step and taking stuff away from her and threats and stuff. That won't work with PDA.

But highly unlikely to get an actual prosecution. It is extremely rare that it's in the public interest to prosecute struggling parents.

Honestly - and bear with me - I would not collect her from school one day. I would email, explaining what you have here, that she's harming your other children, and that you need the school to contact social services and say she is being surrendered because you are in crisis and you cannot have her in the home.

It is shit that it comes to these drastic measures, but sometimes it is the only way to get the attention and help you need. Struggling along quietly on a waiting list while you and your children are hurt is no way to be.

Is there a way of getting your other children out of the house more, to a relative/friends or time with dad for an afternoon so you can spend more one on one with her rather than less? Is there an activity you can do together outside the home where she’s less likely to be violent and you can have quality time (walking/driving/bikes/climbing/painting etc)?

It certainly sounds like there’s likely some SEND going on, but it is hard for middle children. Our middle one was the most emotional, turbulent and unreasonable one at that age. I think they sometimes struggle to find their role in the family and a way of getting attention that doesn’t require shouting/tantruming/being naughty to get it. Especially if your other two are Peter prefects then the only role it leaves her is horrid Henry.

Do you have a local ND support group who could help with strategies for PDA etc, even without a formal diagnosis they might be able to help you. I read an article about how even children with narcissistic traits can be taught more empathy/kindness with practice and reward for kind/thoughtful behaviour.

I think bathing her in love, care and listening might help her to open up and for you to try to get to the bottom of what is really going on with her. She’s obviously frustrated and unhappy.

Oh don’t be daft

Ive had some excellent advice on mumsnet regarding my sons behaviour at the time, 14 years ago and I still regard it as some of the best advice and reassurance I’ve ever had. A lot of parents had been through similar and I found it comforting and that I was wasnt alone.
Do you not think the Op has tried the school and her gp already 😂

Nobody in my life had a child like mine (apart from a few in a support group) child to parent violence is still very taboo and parents are still made to feel like failures over it

Thank God for online forums such as these

I would start to film her for evidence

this may not go down well but I will say it, is there any chance she is being SA? I think current statistics are that 3 out of 30 children suffer some form of SA in childhood and 75% of people who suffer SA never tell a soul about it. Children in particular struggle to articulate what’s happening to them so it comes out through behaviour. Remember all behaviour is communication, even the disruptive behaviours. I would consider who she spends time with, adults and other children alike.

Is there anything you can do to get some space from each other, any local family you and DH plus the other two children can take it in turns to stay with a couple of nights a week? Or if money allows maybe an air b&b for a couple of nights a month.

all the suggestions here are very long term and you need some respite now. My friends son is abusive and violent to her and it’s unbelievably distressing, there is so little help.

Request a meeting with the school’s SENCO. They should be providing support. What you are experiencing is called the coke bottle effect. Also known as after school restraint collapse. It signifies unmet needs at school. If school life was easier, home life would improve too. It doesn’t matter DD is masking. There will be signs at school. The school either isn’t noticing them or is but isn’t recognising them for what they are. Support in school is based on needs, not diagnosis.

I second requesting an EHCNA. On their website, IPSEA has a model letter you can use. You don’t need a diagnosis before requesting an EHCNA.

Request social care assessments. A carer’s assessment for you and an assessment of DD’s needs. On their website, Contact has model letters you can use. Also look at your local short breaks offer. Similarly, a diagnosis isn’t required. It isn’t about taking DC away or saying failing DC either. It is about supporting DD as a child in need by virtue of her disability and you as a carer.

Does DC2 have her own bedroom?

Has DD had a home OT assessment? What about a sensory OT assessment?

For your other DC, some find their local young carers service and Sibs helpful.

Some people find the books the Out of Sync Child and the Explosive Child useful. If you suspect PDA, you might also want to read The Declarative Language Handbook and Born Naughty? Decoding PDA books. Others find non-violent resistance resources useful.

Easy to say! The OP is at the end of her tether and the whole family are suffering, mentally and physically . It can’t continue. There doesn’t seem to be any emergency help available. Perhaps the school could help. The GP needs to realise how urgent this is.

gosh - im so sad. I thought at first it was an ironic title but I see now its real. im so sorry you are suffering so very much and at the end of your tether. I cant imagine how hard this is as a mum.

my sister was actually very much like this - she calmed down a bit in the end as an adult but she bullied me mercilessly as a child even though I was two years older I was a lot smaller than her.

Is she coping ok at school? It sounds very much like the coke bottle effect where she keeps it all in at school and then comes home and lets it all out. Can you spend some one on one time with her when she is calm - do something she enjoys and then have a chat to see if you can get to the bottom of what she’s finding difficult. Perhaps play with some dolls and speak through them?

Try to reduce as many demands as possible. Keep it to the absolute essentials. Check for any sensory triggers - clothing, lighting, sounds etc.

School may say they’re not seeing anything but this is often the case and a child can be quietly struggling with lots of things. She sounds extremely disregulated.

(Mum of autistic child, also autistic/ADHD myself)

I could’ve written this post about my son. For years we were worried about the violence towards us, siblings and self harming. He also masked at school so there was no support there. He finally was diagnosed at 12 years old. CAMHS couldn’t believe how high he scored when he seems to cope at school.
He was around 8 years old when we put in a strict routine. Made sure exercise was priority and screen time was very limited.
He is a lovely boy now. A few moments here and there but he’s not in turmoil like before.

I've seen some families dealing with this split and have a small place for themself and the difficult child. Taking it in turns to be with her and with the other kids. You would be able to claim if you aren't working and you left your husband but only for her. Having one on one can help them and obviously the other kids don't have to live with it

Honestly, you must be able to give a child up. If yu ring social services and say you won't keep her anymore what can they do?

Sorry that’s not fair saying he’s a lovely boy now. He’s always been a lovely boy it’s just his couldn’t regulate his emotions. Routine and Exercise were key for him.

this crossed my mind as well. my younger sister was exactly like this and she told me as a teen that she was being abused by my father.

OP, this sounds unbelievably hard. It's not just your DD, it's the other two you have to see suffer. I can't imagine how difficult this all is for you. When did it start? What are the age gaps between all your children?
When our son was having major outbursts we read a book called The Explosive Child by Ross Greene that was quite helpful.
Sending you hugs.

I know that child violence towards parents isn't well understood. I worked with parents dealing with this.
However mumsnet is a place where people can give themselves a nosebleed with stress because someone disagrees with how much they walk their dog or how much they spend on Birthday presents.

The OP isn't just sharing her experience. She is asking strangers about giving up custody of one of her children. That's not a poll on how often you decorate your house. She could make a serious decision on the future of her family from throwaway comments from people just browsing chats. Its a decision that needs professional advice.

We will have to just disagree here. I think its clear where I stand based on previous professional experience. And professional experience from those who are working in-depth with her family is what the op needs. I wish her the very best. Living in these circumstances is a living nightmare.