Can we give up one of our children?

[pinkstargaze]

I don’t know where else to turn, this is about my 8 year old.
We have 3 Children the eldest and youngest are lovely but the middle child is making life so hard with her violence towards us.

She comes home from school and shouts and screams and hits me and her siblings, she calls me names, swears at me and won’t listen to a word I say just says shut up and covers her ears if I speak to her.
Her siblings are frightened of her, I’m frightened of her I know as soon as I say anything I will be hurt, she hits me in the back and it takes my breath away, she kicks me and tells me to kill myself, slams doors throws things, screams at the top of her voice by which time the other children are crying and I just can’t do this anymore.

I don’t want this for my other children who are so well behaved, we don’t swear or raise voices, we are just a nice family who all get along and respect each other apart from her, she makes everyone miserable, destroys our home and everyone’s belongings.
It is embarrassing, friends won’t have her around their children and even our own family don’t want her near her cousins because it always ends in tears.
I don’t want to live in a home where I’m scared to tell my child off because she’ll hit me, I don’t want to share my home with someone who laughs and points at me with delight when anything goes wrong, or revels in her siblings misfortune and I don’t want to be called names and be sworn at in my own home or have my things ruined by someone who doesn’t care about me or my things.
I don’t want this to be my life and I definitely don’t want it for her siblings.
I feel strongly that for sake of the family’s safety she needs to go into care but I don’t want to lose all my children.
Is it even a thing to put one child into foster care and not the others?

She is waiting to be assessed but the waiting time is long, the school doesn’t see this as she’s masking all day until she gets home but it’s every day.
I have a lovely family, a lovely husband and we have 2 other children who are lovely but she is making our lives hell and our home uncomfortable and I know I just don’t have what it takes to live with her, I am burnt out and feel so guilty to the other children.
Dh does his best when he’s home but we are all so worn down and miserable, we just can’t carry on like this.
It has broken us both and the others are suffering. I genuinely can’t do this but I so love being a mum to the others who I carry on for.

Why would they be exhausted ? These aren’t toddlers, your child is very different to the ops if you’ve experienced them quietening down and this method working.

You have quoted the wrong person. I wasn’t the one saying OP’s DD would be exhausted. I was responding to the pp who said that, hence I quoted part of the pp’s post in bold. I said it would be the case for some DC but not others.

I can’t see anything about this that says additions needs.

Then your understanding of additional needs is lacking.

seems to be a lot of excuses

Explanations. Not the same as excuses.

Please don't do this, it's cruel. She is not choosing to behave like this.

And she'd have trashed every single item in her room while this was going on. Possibly have hurt herself, and also terrified her siblings further.

The only way you can contain a child in this state is in a safe room, where there is nothing at all that she can destroy, or hurt herself with. But even getting her there would be close to impossible and injure her parents.

If you've not come across a child exactly like this, you'll be unaware of how terrifyingly strong they can be, because there's none of the subconscious self-regulation that 99.99% of us have without knowing it. . A five year old boy in my class put one of my TAs in hospital when we were trying to get him to his safe space. It's a level of strength that it's hard to imagine

@AllIwantedwasanMOTWhat is cruel about it? Teachers don’t believe she’s behaving badly at home so evidence will need to be obtained anyway to get her some support. Having a quiet word with her to tell her this when she has calmed down might make her think. She seems an intelligent girl.

Recording it as evidence for professionals is fine, but to leverage this against her to improve her behaviour is trying to shame her into changing behaviour that she in all likelihood has little control over. That's what makes it cruel, you'd be shaming her for her disability.

That’s a lie. Teachers say she’s different at school and that is not the same thing.

There are some children who are so good at masking that teachers don’t even see their autistic traits. Especially girls.

"And she'd have trashed every single item in her room while this was going on."

So what? The OP is talking about putting her into care. What value do you place upon the items in your child's room?

"Possibly have hurt herself"

Possibly.. . And possibly not. It's not been tried.

"also terrified her siblings further."

I'd be reassured by my parents taking action to protect me by removing a violent, abusive sibling from the living room and confining them to their bedroom.

I think they're going to have a lot more trauma if they're exposed to her abuse with no efforts being made to stop it or their sister disappears into care.

It is possible to not put a child into care and not have them trash their room. Trashing the room is not ok because it leaves the child out of control and in totally unacceptable power. The most important thing is to make sure that parents are seen as having power. Anyway, trashing the room usually means being sent there to deal with too-big feelings on their own, rather than the parent having the necessary input on the ground.

Yes it’s not one or the other as the only options. There’s better ways to de escalate suggested below.

@pinkstargaze
I work with families who have children with SEND. It’s so, so difficult when school don’t see any issues. Your daughter must be using all her energy to mask. Home is her safe space where she can let out all her frustration.

You need to apply for an EHC needs assessment. The difficulty will be getting evidence to show she meets the legal threshold, if school claim not to notice any difficulties. They are expensive, but I’d highly recommend an independent Educational Psychology assessment.

You need to involve social services before this escalates and causes even more mental and physical damage to you all. You can make a referral yourself. They won’t take your children away. They will offer support to manage the situation and make sure everyone is safe at home. Any assessment they make will be good evidence to demonstrate need.

Happy for you to message me if you think it would be helpful.

Would camera footage be evidence?

Which county you in?

The school isn't working and once this is resolved she will be an easier child. Is your other children in this school too? Is it possible to look at another school in the town? Some schools are more accepting to sen and also more inclusive. Does she like her school teacher?. Also does she have someone to hang out with? Have you tried to talk about her school day? Look at her timetable and pick out which lessons she likes and hates. Try to find a pattern etc.

Until something is changed with the school / could be the teacher / or the friends it will be hard for her. Is it a massive school with lots of children or a small school due to sensory issues / noise (tell the teacher she wants to take in fidget toys etc). Does she find the work too hard? (dyslexic) or hard to concentrate (adhd)

Also, social services - it would depend on which county you live as some will look at a child in need and some will assess as a child with disabilities. (CWD is the correct way however in some LA Pda comes under a CIN)

Unfortunately, I think if possible it might be worth going private to get your reports / diagnosis (yes you should be able to do it under the nhs but you could be waiting a long time). Equally is there an outsource ASD school locally to you that will come in and watch your child at school? (they can see things which a general teacher cant see) ask the senco. An EP might able to spot the issues if she good / your daughter would cooperate with the tests.

Teachers are not your friends - you could be in a battle with them later down the line. Even the most experienced teachers 20 years plus can not pick up on asd/ pda - my kid was under the rador for years. Make sure you write everything down as if it comes to EBSA (emotionally based school avoidance) / fines then you need your evidence (which is all wrote down / email to teachers etc).

Have you tried to have a meeting with the senco? some are rubbish hopefully you have a good one at the school. However id advise meeting with them (but put the request in via email) and along with your teacher (everything needs to be wrote / emailed) and highlight your child's struggles (this is your evidence for later down the line - even you might use this evidence as "mum reported this issue via email on date / year"

You prob will need an EHCP (you can apply for one of those today using the IPSEA website if in the UK)

Have you seen the PANDA diagram on the pda website? hopefully this diagram has linked the right thing https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.8EMGlHbptobhk3F1qXmaRwHaFj?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain&o=7&rm=3

I would ignore anyone who hasn't had experience with a SEN child / especially a pda child its absolutely exhausting and until you have seen it first hand I wouldn't take any advise from non sen mums or advise on how to "manage a child"

If you have any grandparents that can help out use them.
Keep dividing the family so everyone has some nice times and some special times even if its playing a board game with the other siblings.
Any spare cash get a cleaner in.

There are some good facebook groups to get knowledge. Which county you in?

Good luck, keep going your kid is finding it the hardest here until something changes at school. Try to reason with her and negotiate that will help - treat her like your friend - same level which is weird (not mum / daughter relationship).

Keep going mummy you got this! nearly easter and the kids holiday and no school :-) hopefully you can just chill. Divide and conquer so the other children have a bit of nice time with you.

Also, try and talk to the child if she can articulate what she is finding hard but its might be too hard for her to explain. Make it simple. Try and have a bit of a diary for yourself to see if you can spot any trigger points. We found a pen and paper the easiest way to communicate

You are doing a fab job - keep going - its so hard. Hope the weekend is a chilled one for you all

DC under the CwD team are still CIN as per section 17 of the Children Act 1989’s definition of Children in Need. They might be dealt with via a different team to other CIN, but they are still CIN.

What is this?

@MyTrivia - re your post saying ‘that is a lie’ . See op’s post above. I did not lie. Op says ‘I don’t think anyone believes it is bad…’ referring to school staff .

We certainly had a hard time getting the school on board with our request for support with DD1, for this same reason. They just didn't witness any meltdowns from her, she only had them when at home.

The school didn’t say they don’t believe it happens at home though - they said they see no evidence of it at school. It’s no wonder the OP feels she isn’t believed but, frankly schools will try not to identify needs in children unless the child is disrupting the class. And that’s because identifying needs leads to having to fund those extra needs.

Late to the party but this sounds like my youngest. We waited for her to get over the "terrible twos" and she never did.
Turned out she had borderline personality disorder and we are managing so much better knowing about it. Not knowing I felt the same I regretted having that one more at the time.

Hope you get some help and answers soon.