Can we give up one of our children?

[pinkstargaze]

I don’t know where else to turn, this is about my 8 year old.
We have 3 Children the eldest and youngest are lovely but the middle child is making life so hard with her violence towards us.

She comes home from school and shouts and screams and hits me and her siblings, she calls me names, swears at me and won’t listen to a word I say just says shut up and covers her ears if I speak to her.
Her siblings are frightened of her, I’m frightened of her I know as soon as I say anything I will be hurt, she hits me in the back and it takes my breath away, she kicks me and tells me to kill myself, slams doors throws things, screams at the top of her voice by which time the other children are crying and I just can’t do this anymore.

I don’t want this for my other children who are so well behaved, we don’t swear or raise voices, we are just a nice family who all get along and respect each other apart from her, she makes everyone miserable, destroys our home and everyone’s belongings.
It is embarrassing, friends won’t have her around their children and even our own family don’t want her near her cousins because it always ends in tears.
I don’t want to live in a home where I’m scared to tell my child off because she’ll hit me, I don’t want to share my home with someone who laughs and points at me with delight when anything goes wrong, or revels in her siblings misfortune and I don’t want to be called names and be sworn at in my own home or have my things ruined by someone who doesn’t care about me or my things.
I don’t want this to be my life and I definitely don’t want it for her siblings.
I feel strongly that for sake of the family’s safety she needs to go into care but I don’t want to lose all my children.
Is it even a thing to put one child into foster care and not the others?

She is waiting to be assessed but the waiting time is long, the school doesn’t see this as she’s masking all day until she gets home but it’s every day.
I have a lovely family, a lovely husband and we have 2 other children who are lovely but she is making our lives hell and our home uncomfortable and I know I just don’t have what it takes to live with her, I am burnt out and feel so guilty to the other children.
Dh does his best when he’s home but we are all so worn down and miserable, we just can’t carry on like this.
It has broken us both and the others are suffering. I genuinely can’t do this but I so love being a mum to the others who I carry on for.

I cannot imagine how anyone could live with this situation . How on earth did you put up with this never ending onslaught of violent behaviour?

Our social worker put us on a PDA specific NVR course - for anyone needing similar. It was good
www.raisingawildchild.co.uk/pda-nvr-course

It would utterly break me.

I couldn’t read and run. I have been exactly where you are, and my daughter was 8 too. It got to the point where we hit our rock bottom, like you have. I wont say what happened, but there was a referral to social services (via school) and it was THE BEST thing that ever ever happened to us. All of a sudden there was so much support that I wasn’t even aware of. We were referred to Early Help and put on all these courses. The early help worker came out to see us (parents) and my daughter every week and did work with us. The most life changing thing was going on a sensory awareness course. I was the most sceptical person in the world. If you had told me that getting her some fidget toys, some chewllery, a wobble cushion and weighted blankets would transform our lives, I would never have believed it. But it has. The only way I can describe it is that her sensory needs are being met so she no longer has these epic meltdowns.
what also made the difference was her then (through the work with the EH worker) having the vocabulary to talk about being neurodivergent and having sensory issues and identifying when she feels overwhelmed. Now she just takes herself off to get her ear defenders rather than screaming st us.

i know life feels utterly unbearable right now. I got to the point where I felt like I hated my daughter as her behaviour was so overwhelming and felt like it ruled our house. Now we have the most amazing times together. My advice would be:
keep talking to school. Is she on the SEN register? I literally took videos of DD having her epic meltdowns and kicking me, so they would believe me. I asked for a review from the Councils SEND hub which is a network of all their sencos (as ours wasnt v experienced and thinks ADHD only exists in boys ripping the classroom apart). This SENDCO came in and recommended a load of strategies eg sensory aids and movement breaks. Will your school consider a later start and/or adaptation to uniform if this is a trigger?
document everything to school- show them that you are asking for support. If you hit rock bottom, you’ve got proof you asked for support.

its a year now since we hit rock bottom and I look back and don’t know how we survived. But you will, and things WILL get better. There is so so much help out there. Please feel free to PM me. Wishing you all the best.

Oh wow, that sounds awful, I’m sorry you went through that, she’s not quite at that stage but I don’t know what she’ll be like as she gets older.
She has started saying things like if I can’t have such and such I will scream and wake younger sibling up and she absolutely will.
I’m glad you found counselling useful.
Hopefully I can find the right help for her, it might be trial and error to begin with but something has to work.
I understand about saving your marriage, you really have to be strong for each other.
She’s currently trying to kick my phone out my hand as I’m typing this.

Thank you

It was over years, and he was amazing at other times, but I don't know, to be honest, we had no family help, and there were weekly problems of one kind or another. My poor daughter really suffered (shes 4 years younger) and at times I didn't want to spend any time with my son. I would dread holidays or family activities. We moved schools, moved him down a year, paid privately for counselling, and received an inattentive ADHD diagnosis. Things are so different now. He was an angel at school; they even had a go at us when we asked for their help with the diagnosis, saying we didn't know how lucky we were. But he found school so difficult and compared himself to others all day long, he was diagnosed with dyslexia in Year 7 and was one of the youngest in the year. He's taking his GCSEs next year, and I thank god its not this year as he wouldn't have coped.

We also saw a family counsellor. www.petebrown.org.uk/

First of all don't beat yourself up for feeling like this. It must be so hard. You are right your other 2 kids will be missing out on so much and will having spiralling resentment. If you do want your child taken into care they would not remove the others and they would encourage it to give stability to your other two(seen this before as a teacher). I just wonder why she is a different child at school. Most SEN children show the same traits at school. Is anything happening out with school that is making like this or is something happening at school that she reacts like that at home

Blaming the child is a cop-out.

Doesnt sound like OP could get less demanding. She is essentially a subservient punch bag to this child

Children with a PDA profile as part of their ND still need boundaries and expectations. Its a fallacy to say they dont.

I see more mention of PDA on this site than anywyere else and certainly more than in real life where children and families with ND form a huge cohort of our service users.

Caution is needed before reaching for this.

When she was a toddler, we raised it with nursery who said she was fine and there was nothing to worry about. We raised it with her reception teacher when she started school who said she’s got no concerns and she’s lovely, then year 1 and 2 we had the same response until last year when we saw the sendco because we needed a letter for GP but again she didn’t see any concerns, we’ve asked for another meeting with her.
It seems she’s been masking her whole life. It was like she entered the terrible twos and didn’t come out.

its a fantastic and helpful response

Low demand, PDA type parenting foes not mean being a punch bag or having no boundaries.

It could mean cancelling after school clubs. Allowing the child more choice over clothing, food. Agreeing no homework with school.

I have a daughter with PDA. I had lots of boundaries and my daughter respected them because they were reasonable and she knew I understood her and had organised her life so that 95% of the time she could cope.

It's the case that once they trust you, they can do more.

Obviously we don't know if it's PDA but the strategies for PDA are generally pretty useful while in the thick of it.

I know what low demand parenting is, I support carers and parents with this.

My comment was semi flippant with everyone advising her about this when a) we dont know that is the right approach, she hasnt seen any professional at all so far and b) it doesnt sound as if there are expectations or boundaries in place thus far but I dont expect OP to set out every single aspect of her parenting

This is us too with our 10 year old son. Controls and criticises me and his younger sister all day. Has a very low demand life but
still very angry and violent towards us all 95% of the day. His sister is also displaying extreme behavioural issues.
Rock bottom here and when you are in it it’s extremely hard to fight for support because you’re just so so worn down. Me and my husband are on antidepressants but both extremely depressed

This sounds similar to my DD at the same age, and we were floundering hugely. School also reported no concerns as she masked so effectively . School wouldn’t refer for Ed Psych ax and in our area, the ND clinic will only accept referrals from the education setting.

I am going to list what I think worked for us, as 5 years on she is a different child.

We read a great deal about ASD, ADHD and PDA and decided to adopt low demand parenting - we did lots of research and agreed that we would both be consistent.

We explained to DD and DS that we would be making changes to our parenting because we wanted her , and our family to be happier. On the whole, we adopted the same approach with him.

We stopped using consequences, other than natural ones. Often this was reframing things. So we may still leave somewhere early if her behaviour was awful , but rather than saying it in that way, we would say that she was obv struggling and we were going to take her home to keep her safe and allow her to have some quiet time.

No reward systems.

Pictorial daily timetable. More day to day routine and stability.

We used time in instead of time out.

When she became very violent / affecting DS, I would carry her to her room (or both together if needed) - but not angry, calm and soothing . I would go in with her and sit in front of the door blocking it shut so she could not leave and hurt her brother or herself. I would tell her that I could not leave her until I knew she was safe. Being held very tightly sometimes helped. If she was violent to me, I would try to hold her or I would fold up, head tucked into knees etc. I didn’t engage verbally if she was screaming at me other than to repeat a calm platitude.

We stopped a great deal of activities / social events etc and had a calmer and quieter family life. Lots of walks in nature one to one.

We allowed her to miss school at times.

Covid showed us how much school was affecting her and things improved loads. When school reopened , she returned for a while but when the school still refused to refer her, we removed her at the end of Y4 and home edded her for 18 months, finding lots of nature and animal petting type things. We found the majority of the local home Ed community were ND children failed by the system.

During this time , we had her privately assessed and diagnosed with both ASD and ADHD. We then lobbied the LEA, local schools etc and she is now statemented and has loads of support. She returned to a different school for the last term of Y6 and is now thriving in Y8.

Our approach to parenting has completely changed and our household is so much happier. She has also naturally matured and is gradually learning to articulate her needs - eg, if we are out somewhere - restaurant , panto etc and she becomes overwhelmed/ stimulated, she tells us and we just leave with her , no arguments.

Sensory things , she has a swing sensory hammock thing. She also has a pull up bar in her room to swing on, and a big yoga ball. Her room is her safe haven and we never turf her out for visitors as we once did.

Often, she cannot recognise hunger or thirst - common with ND. And if you offered food /drink / made food suggestions or asked her if she was hungry, she would kick off. We started just making her a healthy snack and drink that we knew she likes, and delivering it to her -
allowing her to eat in her room if need be. She would say she didn’t want it and I’d just say ok, I’ll leave it there just in case you change your mind - it was always eaten and the hangriness would go.

lower expectations- most ND children operate emotional a couple of years younger than their chronological years.

one good example of a simple parenting change - asking her to have a bath would result in screaming / shouting / sometimes hitting and refusal.

Suggesting a bath resulted in her being stroppy, oppositional and refusing.

What worked - running her a lovely deep bubble bath with low lights . And saying to her casually/ in passing that there is a bath ready if she was interested, and walk away without asking her if she would have it. And it worked. Now, she runs baths like this herself and tells us how much they help to calm her down.

Finally, loads of love, affection, warmth. Take her lead if she doesn’t want to be hugged don’t force it but find other ways to be close - walks , reading to her etc.

it is so hard because of course with all of this, you also have to make time for your other DC as there needs will also be higher because of her. We talk to DS about it when she isnt around and give him an outlet to express the impact on him. And we have ended up do lots of things with one parent one child split to benefit them both. The need for this now is lessening.

I hope that some of that has been helpful. You are in the thick of it, be kind to yourself.

Oh my, I am so sorry, I can't imagine.

I do feel for your other children.

That is absolutely unendurably horrendous. I don’t care what needs she has that is absolutely disgusting behaviour. She may be overwhelmed, ND or whatever but that is downright abuse. Yoy wouldn’t tolerate it from a partner or anyone else, so why a CHILD? No wonder you are thinking about putting her in care. I would have done it long ago. I don’t care what response that gets. It’s just not endurable or okay in any way at all. Your poor other children.

There was a poster on the previous page that said her son was violent, and he slapped her daughter (his sister) so hard, teeth fell out.

She still kept him. It seems the other children suffer, with psychological damage, while the challenging children get all the attention. It is sad.

However, it's still your child... You are responsible as the parent. We just got hope they don't become violent adults.

It's really hard right now and understandably so.Your daughter is behaving in a very difficult way. She sounds really hard to deal with.
But underneath all this behaviour is a confused , sad and angry little girl. Try and find something lovable about her, something to build your relationship upon, even if it is the tiniest little thing, something you can share or laugh about together.I echo what others have said about researching PDA.
I really hope that things improve for all of you.

Our son can also display what appears to be bullying behaviour, like what you describe (I asked him to take his coat inside and was called a "fat fucking lady"). It is an attempt to assert control. I personally feel there is quite a difference between the swearing and unkind behaviour phase, and the completely dysregulated meltdown phase. I often offer a hug, which will usually be rejected a few times first. When he does come for a hug, this often helps calm him down and remove the anger. We do now try to put him in his room when he swears or calls us names without obvious cause or reason, as he is still in some control of his behaviour. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do, but we do also have to protect ourselves and DC2. We have previously tried to redirect his aggression but the need seems to be about targeting us, not a physical need to lash out. Alongside this, I am being really strict on manners for both him and DC2, as both were in a habit of snapping and barking orders at me and it was just all-round wearing me down.

Is your daughter ever calm/ regulated at all? This is the time when you can speak to her and explain boundaries. It is not OK for her to continue smacking you when you are making her a snack (of course she shouldn't be smacking you at all, but small steps). I'd say it is perfectly acceptable for you not to agree to her demand until she asks you nicely, and to refuse to make it if she is attacking you. What would happen if you did this? There's a fair chance that dysregulation has become her new normal for at home, and actually feels "safe" for her in the sense that it is predictable.

It also sounds like you are scared of her behaviour and what she will do if you don't give her what she wants. This is totally understandable, but it unintentionally gives her immense power. Ironically, this is probably not what she wants, let alone needs. You need to provide boundaries and guidance for her. Take her power away - she threatens to wake up younger sibling? Calmly tell her "No, you are not going to do that" or "I know you are able to do that and it would be very annoying and quite upsetting for DC3 if you did" That way you are acknowledging the power she has and the threats she is making, without actually giving in to them.

When my son gets hyper (which often leads to meltdowns), we try to intervene with weighted blanket/ lifting his weights (yup, my 7yo has his own set of dumbbells. In his favourite colour :)) or going on his wobble cushion. He often rejects this though. When he goes into full-on meltdown (either uncontrollable crying or uncontrollable rage or a combination of both), we hold him tightly in his weighted blanket and repeat one or two phrases only, until he is calm. We also check for sensory needs, such as being too hot or hungry/ thirsty, as he isn't very good at responding to these. I do restrain him in the sense that I will hold him tightly and hold his limbs down if needed to prevent him from hurting myself or others. I'd describe this more as a firm cuddle than actual restraint though. My son is not yet at a point where he is able to identify what he needs to prevent a meltdown or help himself when the meltdown is happening. I live for the day he is.

FWIW, we hit up ChatGPT (I was the poster upthread recommending this) and it seemed to think a lot of our son's issues are related to ADHD and the emotional dysregulation that goes with it. I have ADHD myself and recognise a lot of myself as a child in his behaviour (although he is worse). Having read this thread, the majority view seems to be that it is likely to be autism. We are currently in the process of getting him assessed privately (waiting lists here are 5-8 years!) for both autism and ADHD. We have been warned that he is unlikely to get an ADHD diagnosis if he is not having symptoms at school.

My daughter was diagnosed with adhd. Her teachers thought there wasnt a problem but she was actually very clever at masking. She had a lot of TA support due to dyslexia - the psychiatrist who was assessing her gave the school 2 forms, one for her teacher and one for the TA. The teacher score was unremarkable - the TA score was off the scale.

Anyway, I would suggest that you get your son privately assessed by an Ed psych, Speech and language therapist and sensory integration therapist if you can afford it. These reports can trigger all sorts of help and identify issues you might not be aware of.

I know everyone is saying this is neurodiversity but a percentage of children will unfortunately be psychopaths in the making. You are recognising callous and unemotional traits. It may be possible to prevent her doing more harm to her own life and that of others if she has some early intervention from a child psychologist.
I'm sorry that you're going through this, it sounds like every parents' worst nightmare and I can see why you feel as you do

The thing is, all these things suggested take time, while OP and her family are suffering and cannot take any more. Surely this is a family emergency. They want help now, before there’s a tragedy.

Can you film an afternoon of her behaviour and ask the school.SENCO to take a look at what you record?

For a problem that has driven you to the point where you are considering giving up your child, I think you need to get a diagnosis privately. Start calling around and make an appointment.