Can we give up one of our children?

[pinkstargaze]

I don’t know where else to turn, this is about my 8 year old.
We have 3 Children the eldest and youngest are lovely but the middle child is making life so hard with her violence towards us.

She comes home from school and shouts and screams and hits me and her siblings, she calls me names, swears at me and won’t listen to a word I say just says shut up and covers her ears if I speak to her.
Her siblings are frightened of her, I’m frightened of her I know as soon as I say anything I will be hurt, she hits me in the back and it takes my breath away, she kicks me and tells me to kill myself, slams doors throws things, screams at the top of her voice by which time the other children are crying and I just can’t do this anymore.

I don’t want this for my other children who are so well behaved, we don’t swear or raise voices, we are just a nice family who all get along and respect each other apart from her, she makes everyone miserable, destroys our home and everyone’s belongings.
It is embarrassing, friends won’t have her around their children and even our own family don’t want her near her cousins because it always ends in tears.
I don’t want to live in a home where I’m scared to tell my child off because she’ll hit me, I don’t want to share my home with someone who laughs and points at me with delight when anything goes wrong, or revels in her siblings misfortune and I don’t want to be called names and be sworn at in my own home or have my things ruined by someone who doesn’t care about me or my things.
I don’t want this to be my life and I definitely don’t want it for her siblings.
I feel strongly that for sake of the family’s safety she needs to go into care but I don’t want to lose all my children.
Is it even a thing to put one child into foster care and not the others?

She is waiting to be assessed but the waiting time is long, the school doesn’t see this as she’s masking all day until she gets home but it’s every day.
I have a lovely family, a lovely husband and we have 2 other children who are lovely but she is making our lives hell and our home uncomfortable and I know I just don’t have what it takes to live with her, I am burnt out and feel so guilty to the other children.
Dh does his best when he’s home but we are all so worn down and miserable, we just can’t carry on like this.
It has broken us both and the others are suffering. I genuinely can’t do this but I so love being a mum to the others who I carry on for.

It is simply not true that the same traits are exhibited at home and at school.

Having read all your responses - please record a few afternoons and make an appointment privately to get to the bottom of this.

Do not wait around.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but...

"laughs and points at me with delight when anything goes wrong"

"revels in her siblings misfortune"

"get me food now bitch, followed by a thump in the back while she’ll repeat food, food, food, now now, while hitting me the whole time that I’m making her something and when I say I’m doing it, she shouts well faster you idiot"

"being called a stupid idiot constantly and hit if things aren’t done how she wants or quick enough"

"if I’m talking or doing something with one of the others she will get in my face and repeat the demand at the top of her voice until I do it"

"It’s not all during a melt down, this is how she usually is, she slowly runs her finger near my eyes to make me flinch, I am intimidated"

"she seems delighted that those things upset us so does it more"

"the nastiness and contempt is always there"

"she chucks her rubbish on the carpet ... she laughs at her siblings like they are mugs"

"she gets such satisfaction out of seeing them upset, if they walk past her at home she’ll give them a swipe for no reason"

"she says, if I can’t have such and such I will scream and wake younger sibling up"

I'm sorry but (as an autistic person) I cannot understand how 'anxiety' or 'too much demand' or 'sensory overload' could possibly cause a child to behave like this. I would never have got away with any of these things at home, nor would any other kids back in my day, no matter how overwhelmed we felt. She's got you wrapped around her little finger, and she knows it.

The only diagnosis I'd give here is 'parents too soft, needs more discipline'. Regardless of ASD/ADHD/PDA/ODD/dyslexia/dyspraxia/sensory processing disorder/whatever else she'll inevitably be diagnosed with, because no-one dares to suggest kids are just being cheeky brats any more.

Im autistic too but I don’t have PDA. I have two children who have PDA profile and one that doesn’t and she’s the most calm/compliant of all of them.

The thing about PDA is that if a child grows up with nobody realising that they have this profile, they can often become aggressive and out of control and it really is due to anxiety at the core.

My 6 year old is well behaved but it’s because I adjusted things for her from a young age. For just one example, if she started to go into a melt down, I sat in front of her on my knees to talk to her so that she’s a little bit taller. Immediately, I would notice her stress levels / anger drop. She will have moments where she shouts one word at me and then quickly says ‘sorry’. I don’t ever shout back.

Another thing is that being in the wrong school can cause behaviour to escalate over time and the OP’s dd is clearly a high masker.

Yes! In fact it’s really really common for autistic kids to mask at school and then explode at home.

DSD is autistic, diagnosed, and when dysregulated she says things like this. When she's not, she's an absolute delight, she's so loving and affectionate and kind, she is painfully empathetic and sensitive. But she can come out with some vile stuff when she's in a bad way. We don't take it personally because she doesn't mean it but she's not being a 'cheeky brat'.

The quotes you’ve provided are typical of a PDA profile - if you read my son’s EHCP/diagnostic report/EP reports etc you’d see all of that explained by professionals as autism with a PDA profile.

there is help, and there are ways to reduce those nervous system responses, but they 100% are not discipline, punishments, consequences. Those things don’t work, quite the opposite for a PDA child whose brain sees threat everywhere.

PDA is still quite controversial. Its not currently included in either the DSM5 or ICD11 as a valid diagnosis

I have been living in the same situation. I managed to persuade school to refer at the end of Year 6 - we are now half way through Year 10 and no word on the list place yet.

In the meantime, we have had success some with changing language and accommodations using PDA guidance. https://www.atpeaceparents.com/ is active on Facebook and has some amazing advice.

Time has helped, I think and hope. DD is now 15 and is less awful to me and her siblings and warns if she is feeling violent. I hope this because she is more regulated, but part of thinks she is just better at masking at home now. She often seems zoned out and spends a lot of time doing a home activity that I know is sensory regulation.

You’re not alone, though that is small comfort when we don’t have the answers for you. It is so very hard on so many levels; not just managing it all every day, but the enormous guilt that this situation is also changing the way you parent your other children, changing the home they live in, changing the opportunities they have.

I found online SEN support groups helpful at times (google your local council and SEN groups). I also found going away for the weekend fairly regularly and leaving DH to manage at home restored me enough to get back in to it for another few weeks. Even a day to yourself to go somewhere other than home might help.

Although it is not a diagnosis, it is recognised as a type of profile.

children like this need a different approach

The DSM is problematic. Not being in it means it hasn't gained enough support among the key people in the psychology world. It is interesting that parents are the ones who DO see the value of a PDA explanation while professionals are saying it doesn't exist.

My daughter was diagnosed with PDA by a paediatrician when she was 7 in 2006. I had never heard of it. She was later assessed at CAMHS and was diagnosed ASD with PDA. So, DSM or not, it is possible to have it diagnosed.

I don’t think it’s controversial in the field - it’s just not in DSM /ICD (yet).

ETA - our understanding of the huge variety of ASD profiles is growing a lot at the moment. PDA may never become a formal diagnosis, but I’d say every professional we’ve engaged with recognises it and describes DS as PDA, even in the diagnostic report which expressly said, although we aren’t able to diagnose PDA currently, this is the profile he fits.

I think the absolute worst thing for this child would be going into care 😱 This sounds like neurodivergence or mental health.

This is just nonsense.

Wow

It would be terrible, but there’s the whole family to consider.

No, sorry - parents don't get to sacrifice one of their children 'for the sake of the family' - that's some Old Testament level shit.

I agree. And I think this situation could be turned around. But not if it’s allowed to run into the teenage years without some direction and a change of how to approach things with this little girl.

In a similar situation, that I have a difficult and very angry/hard to manage child of a similar age. I would not go down the care / foster care route as that really is awful and the siblings will never forgive you I think. But temporarily having the child stay with family for weeks - while you rehabilitate yourselves, if that would be possible at all. I have considered boarding school and still considering it. I can’t see being able to carry on this way for year and years, I will die of a heart attack.

We have all the diagnosis’s… ehcp… medication.. therapies… support workers - honestly it all amounts to nothing. In a practical way we get no help. Just ideas about ‘low demand parenting’ and other nonsense. No help is coming your way, even with diagnosis and SENCO and all that. It’s only you as a family who will be managing this. That’s what I’ve learnt from 5+ years of chasing appointments, form filling, processes, hospital visits, various SEND appointments, at home visits from so called behaviour specialists, and more admin. It is a full time job on top of dealing with the actual behaviour

Another option, separate from DH and have kids 50/50 allowing to get a break from the constant hyper tension and stress. I think about doing that on bad days. It almost feels inevitable.

Like you, I worry for my other child. Seeing their siblings in such states of maddness and anger is so traumatic. The shouting, the fear. It’s hell.

I don’t mean permanently, but at the moment the siblings must be terrified, and all the attention they should be getting is going on the troubled child. Something has to give under all that tension. The parents are burnt out. What do you suggest should be done immediately?

If you had to live that life I wonder if you would feel the same.

I do think even if you could give up one of them, what sort of place would they be placed? I can't see carers rushing to help take on a child with so many difficulties, especially if they had other children living with them.

I know a family that used to foster. They had five of their own kids and always had at least one foster child.

From what their biological children told me, a lot of quite troubled children turned things around just by living there and slotting into normal family life of school, family meals, swimming lessons, etc.

The only fostering that ever failed was a girl like this. She was in a constant rage and eventually threatened the mother with a kitchen knife and that was that.

We thought that too, about separating to enable some 50/50 help x my son is doing well now but I’m petrified he’ll become and adult and not want to take medication and become violent. It was and can still be so hard and I’m so sorry to read what you’re going through x