Dying and the NHS

[TheAmusedQuail]

This week, my elderly neighbour (history of heart problems) needed an ambulance. His wife called 999 and they told him the wait was 5 hours. The operator advised him to go to the local GP surgery which is a 5 minute walk away (2 min drive).

He died in the waiting room. The horror of the lack of help available to us in emergencies is like that of an undeveloped country. Today, I read about a man having a heart attack in A&E in the UK. He was left, rolling on the floor in agony, turning blue in the face and frothing at the mouth, in front of his family.

I'm not young, although not yet elderly. I'm terrified that there will be no help available, given that I'm getting older. I know it isn't just my neighbour, or the man I read about, or me. It's all of us. But I'm very scared.

Sadly, once someone is terminal the NHS don’t want to know. Both my parents were told there was nothing they could do and told to go away essentially. Not even offered morphine until the final moments. Awful.

Yes, if ot was really just"a verruca, how did it get any where near an Advanced Practice Nurse?

You could say that about any medical help…we’ll all die eventually anyway…

While it's incredibly sad that he died in a GP waiting room, he was also elderly and had heart issues. He would have passed away in hospital instead. People are living fat longer than they ever did and this is the repercussion of that.

Doctors should still do house calls. This elderly man may potentially have still died, but in his own home in his own bed.
This is one of the reasons why we have all these patients in corridors for days, many very elderly, when a doctor could visit tjem at home, examine them and decide if they need hospital care or their body is just closing down naturally.
It would avoid much pain and heartbreak

I think there is a lot of ageism in the system as well. My young DC has a complicated medical history and we have ambulances out in no time if needed, however the care my grandmother got before she passed was appalling. I guess in a stretched system though hard decisions have to be made.

I cannot believe an NHS call handler told someone with chest pains/cardiac issues to attend the GP practice in lieu of a 999 ambulance/A+E attendance.

Depending on when he went there may have been NO clinicians around at all- or all busy doing clinics. GPs do not do emergencies or walk-ins.
Its entirely inappropriate- not surprised the was a poor outcome.

We do.

Agreed. We need it sorted. It’s not fit for purpose. We need the European model.

I know. God knows what will happen to me. I'm headed for life as an 'elder orphan' - not a family member in the world.

By the way everyone should know where there nearest defibrillator is - mine is at local school, but gates are locked out of hours so have to go further.

Our local one has the instructions on what to do but it doesn't actually have the cabinet number or the address card. Those areas in the box are just blank.

She could have gone to a local pharmacy for advice.

i recently tried for DD2 rather than GP first figuring it would be quicker than trying with GP and NHS said their local pharmacy first scheme could deal with it.

I went in expecting as could few years ago to speak to a pharmacist - you can't do that anymore you have to book in as they are so busy and next appointment was next day due to a cancellation. The local GP practises re-direct to the pharmacists so often they are all flat out.

I go into the GP - no-one there. When we first move here 10 years ago you could still turn up with no appointment to morning surgery and get seen.

Even if you get to the GP we all had the go away and come back routine before any illness gets taken seriouly.

For a burised finger I'd look at NHS webpages for advice and only bother anyone further if there was more to it in a few days.

I know my Mum had to beg to get an ambulance for Dad in his final years and FIl who had a serious fall down stairs had to wait two hours for one despite going unconcious. They also for both just suddenly dumped them back home with no ongoing care sorted a few times.

When Dad died everyone in NHS was informed - used central system but siblings contatced every department directly - six week after his death Mum had a knock on his door a hospital nurse come to take blood and readings a waste of everyones time and very distressing.

My experience is the opposite; FiL collapsed at home and the ambulance was there in less than 10mins, they tried for 40mins to resuscitate, sadly died at just 69 of massive heart attack. I think it can be a different response based on how the caller gives information.
Personally, I think the NHS is so misused, reports of 12 hour waits, many of these ppl don’t need to be in A&E but due to the lack of GP appointments they take themselves there. Having being in A&E with broken limb (d.c.) there were many ppl who could have been at home with a paracetamol.

I spent 50 hours in a chair in a&e this week before getting a bed. Presented with stroke/neurological symptoms including numbness and pins and needles. It was absolutely insane.

No, any citizen who is unwell and cannot access the standard health care provider (for ex. Local surgery, walk n centre etc)), should be able to go and ask for help at the next level up without being judged for wasting time.
I agree with other posters that there is too much preventable illness.
But, ultimately, the whole system needs a complete overhaul.
The country is not helping the ill people because it cannot afford it through miss-management of resources and there are far too many idiots who don’t look after their own health or after the health of their own children.
In an undeveloped country, perhaps people are too afraid of getting ill and are a bit more cautious with their health because they understand there is not much help available from their own government?

sounds like he triaged as unwell rather than seriously ill then sadly declining rapidly

It does suggest this was the case. Heart issues do not get a referral to the GP because they don't have the equipment to diagnose or treat. You need fast blood tests, ECG and access to surgery.

Had they got to a&e the chances of survival would be higher however heart attacks are unpredictable. So many men die on the golf course or whilst doing exercise as often symptoms are difficult to diagnose.

A&Es & NHS services are incorrectly used, it's naive and wrong to say otherwise. Is the resourcing at the right level for the rapid growth in population needing care, perhaps not but you can't scale up without planning and it takes time. It also takes money that the UK doesn't have.

It would help if the NHS didn't pursue court cases trying to get around the law om single sex facilities however!

Did you get triaged during that time? Where they able to eventually diagnose and treat you?

Well there would be a lot more money available for the NHS if Starmer wasn’t insisting on putting us on a war setting at huge cost.

I have a friend from a paid for healthcare country.

he made a point that stays with me- that paying for healthcare has its disadvantages- for elderly people he found this to mean they could easily pay for operations and interventions that did not improve their quality of life; but as an advantage also provides a hard stop.

Because when decisions about treatment are made by doctors that can inform a medically “good” time to die.
When it's made by profit, you can easily miss that window by paying for more and more treatment with no one supporting you to understand whether the outcomes are worth it.

the example re your neighbour is horrific. But it’s also a case of where they died. In theGP surgery or in the back of an ambulance. We have a right to expect what is best for us, but we can’t always get it.

another example is my Gp surgery- I was there when an air ambulance landed in the car park. A patient had a heart attack and they had called for an ambulance. The dispatcher misunderstood and thought the patient was 36 and healthy. In fact they were 86 with many complications. The air ambulance left- unfortunately that patient wasn’t “worth” it.

they had the response ready to go for other patients, it wasn’t a resource thing. It was whether the resource was appropriate.

We have an ageing population but everyone wants to ignore this & no one wants to pay for it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, why do you ask?

I had a stroke while home alone during the pandemic. I phoned 111 recalling all the advice not to call 999 expect in an emergency, so was expecting at least to have a wait for an ambulance giving DH time to get home.
Before the call handler had finished triaging me the ambulance arrived and I was blue lighted to hospital.
one of the paramedics really pushed for me to be admitted immediately.
it’s thanks to him and the call handler that I’m here today.
they can be, and frequently are, super humans.
Fast forward to a year ago, I had an accident at home and ruptured my mastectomy wound, four days post op.
DH drove me to hospital. I was literally pouring with blood, my clothes were drenched in blood and nothing was stopping the bleeding. I started to go in and out of consciousness in the car.
Got to A&E and had to join a queue that stretched out of the A&E department in the freezing cold. DH went to the BC clinic in same hospital who sent a nurse down to me. She tried to advocate for me but was told I couldn’t jump the line because they didn’t know if any one ahead of me had more urgent needs.
so I had to wait in line amongst people who had the where with all to pack a lunch, people who were videoing themselves and people who were looking at my blood soaked clothes as if I were a leper.
it was horrendous.
even when I got to triage I was sent to the waiting room, with blood dripping through my clothes and on to the floor.
when I was finally seen I could not fault the clinicians, who were horrified that I’d been made to wait.
fortunately I was stitched up the next day so all was good.
but really, A&E is not fit for purpose anymore 😞

We’re in a perfect storm.
We’ve disempowered ourselves to self treat, so turn up for treatment for things that we all did at home in the 70s and 80s. We’re risk averse so treat things medically that could be treated at home, for fear of the slight risk of them getting worse.
We have a large elderly population needing care and poor arrangements for that care in most cases. I have several elderly relatives that bounce between home and hospital on an almost monthly basis. They seem to spend maybe 50% of their time in hospital.
Our health is declining- we will get a long, unhealthy old age.