NHS/Term-time contract

[JokerOfTwo]

Hello,

Has anyone successfully been given a term time only contract from the NHS?

Background: currently on my 2nd Maternity leave, will return in October (officially ends 3rd week of August but using leave to extend) I work in a specialist role as a band 6 - the team is made up of 6’s/7’s/8’s. I currently work full time (37.5) but would like to drop to 31.5 (this isn’t a problem) it’s a Monday - Friday job.

My eldest DC will start school in September, and my leave will just not cover the school holidays, my husband works for the police (he’s not a police officer) but due to strict operational requirements, chronic staffing shortages, him having “on call” shifts and high demand during peak times leave requests can easily/often be declined.

My mum works full time (lives 3+ hours an away) and In-laws have made it politely clear they don’t not want to be child care for several weeks a year.

I’ve looked at/asked about holiday camps for the top 3 schools I’ve applied & they all just seem a bit flimsy, they start at 9am finish at 3, only run Mon - Thurs, not available every break & the waiting lists are long, this just seems like a disaster waiting to happen to rely on these when I just don’t have the back up if it falls through.

On top of this even though I’ll have to take this time off work my youngest will be in private nursery (contracted to 51 weeks a year) so I’ll be paying for him to attend even when he doesn’t need to (because I’ll be off work) whereas if I put him the school nursery he’ll have the same time off as eldest & it’ll save me £400 a month, this is my average bill currently with a child in nursery even with “30 hours free”

Please note I’ve not spoken to my ward manager/matron about this, so really looking for advice on approaching the situation.

And as tempting as it is to say things like “work it out between you and other mums” or “I made it work back in the day” I’m really just wanting advice on if people have been granted it & what were the circumstances.

Not everybody has the same support systems or local/community support in place as others.

It's not unknown to get a term time only contract in paediatric community services. Much of our work is school based so holidays tend to be spent catching up on admin, writing reports etc.

Hi,

I can totally imagine the majority of teams in the NHS struggle being fair when allocating leave during schools holidays

However it’s just not the case (so far) in my team, the other staff with school age children are non-clinical and we have totally separate rotas/don’t really interact day to day, and the clinical team are made up of a pretty child free/older children bunch. And absolutely people want time off at Easter/Christmas/Summer - but in reality how we work our patient load can be modified to suit anytime nurses want off (within reason) so if 60% of staff wanted Easter off it’s doable.

We don’t use bank to cover sickness (as in the nurse calls in that day so cover is required) as it’s a very niche specialty & that would never work, we offer OT, do some shuffling about or re-schedule.

I’ve worked there for several years & my appraisals are great, patient feedback is great, I get on well with my team, and have documentation to prove I work at much higher level than I’m paid (if you look at other Trust my job spec matches that of a 7) i’m hoping I can use some of this to negotiate.

I agree I’m going to have to go in with a service provision plan & to make sure to other staff are not impacted by my request. And really I know I’m unlikely to get it, was really hoping someone commented with some positive (some have)

I thought given the change in law about day one employment rights and NHS Englands stance on flexible working, were rigid “No/Yes” policies on flexible working requests were removed, or should be removed, as they contradicts the “Case By Case Basis” and “Mandatory Consultation” sections of the policy.

Yes it does offer OT, but only when someone calls out last minute as anything we have notice on can be easily rearranged. TOIL is trickier as we manage our own diaries so if people are constantly being owed hours their work load would be looked at and altered so they can manage their patients within their contracted hours, so I couldn’t in theory work 5 hours extra every week and plan to save this for holidays.

All you can do is put together a case balancing your needs with service needs and evidencing this, CC in your union rep and send to your line manager, beyond that I don't think anyone can advise further other than to say that it has never happened/ is extremely rare in the NHS Trust they work in.

Thank you, yes definitely going to go in with a plan regarding service provision, continuity of care for patients, reduction in staff impact and contingency plans for all.

I have a niche role and we manage our own patients/diaries/clinics, I’m not part of any service that has super tight patient diagnostic times like oncology’s “2 week wait” pathway or MND referral clinic etc.

I really think the only reason why they won’t give it to me is because it’s set a precedent for other staff to ask for it and once you give it to one it’s hard not to give it to everybody which maybe that’s just something I have to learn to accept.

Are you near a university? I've previously worked at a student health centre which employed term time practice nurses. Really enjoyed the work. Would you consider moving into primary care nursing?

Can you try and get a school nurse job?

Really, I’m not saying it’s something I’ve come across a lot, but I’ve definitely come across staff on these contracts - but I was childless then & wasn’t savvy enough to think to ask how they got it.

I’m in a clinical NHS role. I’ve never known anyone clinical on a term time only contract. Even none clinical it’s few and far between (but a bit more common). But if you are in a niche team that can decide on their own work pattern you are probably in a better position to at least try. Would you be willing to stay full time, term time only?

I have to say though, I know you are convinced your team will be happy with you using all your leave for school holidays, but I would be extremely wary about the 2 weeks at Xmas and the back end of the summer holiday, unless your team can literally shut down if everyone wants to be off at the same time. Xmas and the time around August bank holiday are popular with everyone.

I'm a university lecturer and when my DCs were in primary school DH commuted 4 days a week. We live in a small town.
We've used the school holiday club (which covered more hours than yours - are you sure they are that short?), staggered annual leave (I always get Christmas/Easter but never half terms), taken unpaid parental leave, and used other clubs. If you can WFH for the last couple of hours a day you can make a club that finishes at 3 work.
We've used Mad Science (which handily meets on my university campus), a craft club, a dance club, drama club, football club, acrobatics, and multi sports club. We've also used a childminder (she took one of the DCs in term time and then added the other in the holidays).
You may find you need to take more unpaid leave in Reception as some clubs start age 5. On the other hand one club for 4+ took one of my DCs the summer before Reception!

BTW with unpaid parental leave - they can't deny it entirely, they can ask you to move it to another time. So if they refuse Christmas, they need to suggest new dates within 6 months so you could request Feb/May half term or Easter.

Okay, possibly you’ve never worked in industries with “on call” shifts, could be wrong

But just to clarify the “on call” shift is not every week, they have to provide so many “on call” shifts in a 12 month period (he is paid for this) it makes up part of his salary plus’s if he is actually called out he gets paid money on top (not quiet as good as OT, but not far off)

“On calls” you are based at home but are contactable if the most senior person (who is working that day) needs assistance, has had to go home sick/for an emergency etc.

You do not do “on calls” if you are annual leave.

Id say he only ever actually gets called out on his “on calls” 20% of the time, but to answer your question he has to be available for calls and within so many minutes drive from base - so in theory he could watch the kids but would be up shits creek if he gets called.

Re: working a 4 day work, I assume you mean reducing his hours, if he put in a request to reduce his hours he would have to move departments, two things; he loves his job (as do I & no one’s telling me to leave the job I love) and other than the occasional “on call” shift on a Saturday/Sunday he doesn’t work nights/routine weekends/bank holidays so he’s pretty lucky in the police.

But yes in theory if by some magic he got granted a 4 day week, as “on call” shifts are in addition to your full time hours that week (part of your salary) he could be placed “on call” on his day off midweek.

In my experience, requests for unpaid parental leave are very rarely granted in school holidays. I went back to work assuming I’d use a lot of it to cover gaps but in five years I’ve maybe been able to/allowed to take…2 weeks? Every other time I’ve requested it’s just been refused. But I am in a very acute team with on calls and not much flexibility, so you may have more luck. Needless to say I am looking for a way out of my job 🙂

I would be incredibly surprised if you get this, OP.

Parental leave is unpaid, they’ll have additional £ to get bank cover even if it’s a lower grade. Giving you the green light not to work any school holidays is going to be a nightmare for the service to cover. I work in the NHS and I’ve only ever seen annualised hours for consultants in specialties with lots of other consultants, and it has been a rarity even then, often when they’ve desperately tried to keep hold of someone and changed their contract as a concession, because recruitment in that area is so hard etc. Even then there has been a limit on a minimum amount of hours to be worked.

So, and I’m sorry as I may have missed this, what’s the issue with him also using his annual leave to cover school holidays if his on call shifts are rostered and only occasional? You would have to make sure you are off for any of his on calls but his other days…?

Hi, me & DH have discussed that and if they caveat the request with “only if you work full time” then we’d try it. Seems a fair negotiation for them.

Re: staff being happy with me being off, I think peoples own working situation clouds the judgement on this, as many people in my team do take 2 weeks off at Christmas and no one bats an eyelid, I’ve never done it myself - but them not being their does not impact me/my patients/my work load. Not to regurgitate what I’ve already chatted about but we are autonomous with regards to our patient load, I don’t want to say what specialty I work in (as i want to stay anonymous) but I think if I did people may understand better.

(as do I & no one’s telling me to leave the job I love)

A few people have suggested roles in school nursing etc to be fair.

Ask but expect them to say no, find a childminder.

Re: camp start times/provisions, we live in a semi rural area, with a bit of primary school drought (not many in the area) therefore my understanding is why would people set up these camps or start childminder businesses in places where there’s not many schools & the ones that do and see it as a positive get booked up quick, the top two choices for schools the camps they offer are basically run by their own staff so they understandably want to work their usual hours. Our third choice school does use private companies but has terrible breakfast club provisions, it’s 20 minutes in the opposite direction to our workplaces & I have 2 summer babies so neither will be 5 until the August of their reception years and we were told by them they can’t do camps until they are 5.

Having Christmas & Easter off guaranteed must have made things slightly easier

DH does WFH 2 days a week & we will take advantage of that during term time (drop off pick ups) but I can’t imagine he could work with a 4 year old in the house in the holidays

A term time contract is the dream, but we will probably end up doing what you’ve done: take annual leave at opposites times to cover it all, maybe some unpaid leave, and maybe using annual leave to cover start/finish times for camps.

Oh gosh, this is what I’m a bit confused with so many people pushing unpaid leave when in my experience I’ve never know anyone use it, you’re right though I don’t work in an acute setting (anymore) nor do I do on calls (never have) so maybe I might be a bit luckier

He will absolutely use his annual leave for childcare during the holidays, but in the several years I’ve worked for my team I’ve never had annual leave denied, whereas he routinely gets it’s declined… so he could request October half term but may not get it, his leave is just less predictable than mine.

Like a pp, I'm an AHP that works term-time only. I'm mostly based in schools though, so it isn't a show-stopper if I don't work in the school holidays.

I don’t think I’ll get it but not for the reasons you’ve stated, I don’t mean to be rude but if you read my replies, we don’t cover our leave at all (bank or other wise) hence why I’ve never had any leave denied in the 5+ years I’ve been there, the type of provision we provide isn’t tied to any targets, 2 week wait proformas etc, it’s not acute or inpatient based - so we regularly have a large percentage of staff off on certain weeks of the year and provision isn’t affected.

My job is very niche & recruitment is difficult, so that does play in my favour also.

Does your NHS trust have an onsite Nursery? The rates are cheaper as it salary sacrifice and they also do a holiday club for about £25 per day.