Call for circumcision safeguards after baby death

[SerendipityJane]

No excuse in the UK. Ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj2r8x2k4yo

Me and DD witnessed a lady gtting very stroppy in Claires as they refused to pierce a babys ears without proof it was 4 months old. The mother tried to use time stamped photos of her holding the baby in the hospital post birth as proof.
I judged HARD

I do agree that It's difficult.

Because whatever the dodgy practices and breaches, our government has, passed laws against fox hunting and ear docking as a reflection of what society believes is right. So legally, we have banned fox hunting, just as we have banned burglary, and speeding and everything else that is against the law.

If we don't have a law against cutting bits of children's bodies then we are surely condoning it?

Smoking weed reputedly causes fewer health issues than alcohol, yet it's illegality is arguably behind gang-related violence, county lines, modern slavery etc etc - so yes, there are big risks in potentially deflecting to an illegal trade as an alternative to legal.

And without legalised abortion we know that a return to back street practice would cause untold damage.

The law (in circumcision being allowed, and in unregulated circumstances) around this just seems so incongruent with every other law about abuse and assault etc. Cut off a foreskin: fine. Cut off an earlobe: Criminal.

On balance I would be in favour of making it illegal and would vote that way in a referendum, for example.

Apart from anything else, what else might be allowed on the basis that it is a religious practice?

Timodine cream?

We have that. It resolves the discomfort quite quickly but then it starts again.

Hopefully will resolve itself but honestly if this is still going on in a year then I am going to look again at circumcision. As you say the tight foreskin is an issue in adulthood even if we can control the infection aspect so why suffer all these years if it’s clear it’s going to be a persistent problem.

Quite scary hearing some of these stories though. That is a worry.

What an overreaction! @RampantIvy didn't say that no other religions and suchlike do the same (or similar) as people who are Jehovahs Witnesses.

She was just giving an example of something similar to what we're on about. Certain practices done because of religion. Calm down.

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There are Eastern and Southern African Christian Churches that circumcise - probably having blended culture with religious practice. Common in Ghana and Eritrea, for example.

@Weirdoeroim very anti circumcision but sounds like this is a medical reason. My kids' father and grandfather had to be circumcised for similar reasons. I fully expect my son to need the same when he's around 8.

“Religion and medicine aren't really compatible.”

This is what I was objecting to, in the first post. And the second poster beginning “Sadly you are right,” which I took as agreeing with the whole of the post they quoted.

I have no disagreement with the criticism of unsafe practices carried out on religious grounds, including the examples given. Just with the blanket statement and with the subsequent agreement that religion and medicine aren’t compatible.

Thank you. To me this is medical reasoning yes. And yes I too was really anti circumcising before. Quite judgemental about the idea of it tbh so this has been a humbling experience.

I think the point I was initially trying to make was that I am now anti banning it. Because who decides what’s medical necessity? If it’s the NHS then clearly they are happy not doing anything for a very long time. I have no idea when they deem it medically necessary - penis falling off? Yes probably an exaggeration but you get what I mean.

Of course the NHS decides when it’s medically necessary. It’s a medical procedure. They decide when a child needs their tonsils taken out, too. Who else?

Non medical circumcision should never be done on a child. If an adult chooses to do so for religious reasons then that is a choice they can make for themselves

How awful.. why would any parent do this

Just to be clear - you understand that 80% of men in the US are circumcised and whilst the practice has declined over time it is still considered so safe and non problematic that c.50% of babies are circumcised.

In the UK you have to be licensed to perform a circumcision - some is done in medical clinics by doctors and some is done by specially licenses practitioners.

@IDontHateRainbowsI’m always ranting about that as well. It’s disgusting. Unnecessary and cruel practice I instantly hate the parents.

Respectfully that’s nonsense. The NHS being a cash strapped free service the bar for most things is ridiculously high. So no I don’t think NHS medical approval is the be all and end all of defining medical necessity.

Yep. Nice little earner for the American medical profession/insurance companies.

Just to be clear-the rate of circumcision is practically zero in Scandinavia.

Because who decides what’s medical necessity? If it’s the NHS then clearly they are happy not doing anything for a very long time.

Doctors decide.

And waiting lists vary for all operations.

It shouldn't be up to a parent to decide their child might or might not have a medical issue in the future, and therefore remove part of the baby's body 'just in case'.

Did they feel any guilt? Or like the baby who died from measles who hadn't been innoculated, did the parents see it as God's will?

In the absence of my child having capacity then yes of course I am going to make decisions for their healthcare.

An example; I have small ear canals. Medically so. My ears require cleaning twice a year or I get infections. If I wait and get an infection. I still require them cleaning or the antibiotics don’t work.

Will the NHS do it? No. Not preventatively. Not even when I have an infection. So I go private. As I would for my own children if they had similar issues.

I don’t have a penis myself so this is a learning experience for me. But yes I am not opposed to using private healthcare to fast track/ avoid the ‘laissez faire ye must suffer more trial and error wait it out until everything goes to shit’ ethos of the NHS. I am not there yet with his circumcision but yes it’s something my partner and I have spoken about after a bad week penis wise.

The difference is that in America, the parents are asked if they want their newborn son circumcised, so they can decline. Here in the UK, if parents want their newborn son circumcised, they have to ask, so they can choose to not get it done.

My baby boy is due in March and I'll be shocked to the core if either one of us is asked if we would like it to be done. We'll politely decline and potentially lodge a complaint for even being asked about such a barbaric practice.

Your child appears to have a medical need.

This has nothing to do with the thread really, which is focussing on religion and culture.

I know. Not sure about this country but I know how it’s done in other places. I’m a vegetarian and try not to think about it.

Or your private doctor decides. The point is that it should always be a purely medical decision.

"Two men say they're Jesus,
One of them must be wrong ...."

There are are different types of fgm. It is genital mutilation and all firms of genital mutilation sbould be illegal.

Totally agree. Of course you can’t cut bits off a baby because “religion says so”. Even if it was zero risk (which it is not), what the fuck are they thinking - practicing a religion as an adult doesn’t (or shouldn’t) give you the right to do this to a baby.