How do you feel about this for National Service/Conscription?

[monrymeadows73]

A lot of European countries, most notably Germany are moving towards the reintroduction of conscription. Right now, Germany has introduced a volunteer system, whereby all men born in 2008, who will turn 18 in 2026, have to undergo an assessment to test for their fitness for military service with the intention of incentivising German men to join the German military. However, if there are not enough recruits, then Germany may mandate conscription. But, this is just for men; not women.

In some other European countries, conscription is mandatory for only men; while in others like the Scandinavian countries, women are also obligated to take part in military service.

I know that some may oppose conscription/military service in the UK outright; but if, for whatever reason, it was re-introduced, how would you feel about the following points:

1. Should British women aged 18 and above be forcibly conscripted along with British men; or just British men?
2. Should women have to undergo the same processes in the military like have to have their heads shaved like men do?

I wonder how this fits into feminists' views of equality. Again, before some people start suggesting that they are opposed to conscription for everyone, what I'm asking about is if somehow it was implemented, regardless of how you feel about it, how do you think it should be promoted i.e. for both sexes and both having to undergo the same processes or just for men?

I disagree completely with forcing men or women into the forces.

National service is a good idea; and could be wider than young people. Civil defence as a result of climate change will be an ongoing need. We need to be better able to deal with floods; forest fires and pandemics

If a country is at risk of being invaded; then the whole concept of what it means to be a country or a nation state is under threat. We haven't had to live directly with war in the UK for generations.

I would support national service for both men and women. I think it will give valuable skills. I also think that national service should be broader than military and could include placements in health; social care or civil engineering

I live in Germany, a LOT of younger people (and their families) are pissed off with this. There was a big demo yesterday, and I would consider joining future ones. Luckily my DC are both too old and the ‘wrong sex’ to be affected by this, but it’s a bad move. AFAIK the army doesn’t really like conscripts either.

But it’s clear they’re not getting enough volunteers by normal means and have been getting more active in recruitment for a while now. There’s always a Bundeswehr stand at careers fairs, and when DC2 turned 18 she got a postcard from the Bundeswehr asking her to consider joining (as a career soldier). She wouldn’t be accepted on health grounds in any case, but presumably a few kids were tempted.

Germany has always had a system of voluntary service. It started back in West German days as a ‘civilian’ alternative for men who refused to join the army. They could work in a nursery or hospital or any other public institution (usually of their own choice), and were highly valued because they cost very little and were fit enough to do all the heavy work.

Now, post-conscription era, they’re open to all young people post-school and there are two types: a social year or an ecological year. Participants usually live with their families or get accommodation provided, and get ‘pocket money’ (about 350 euros monthly?) in return. It looks really good on people’s CVs, especially if they want to go into healthcare or education later.

But crucially: it’s not mandatory, so people really want to do this service. There wouldn’t be enough capacity to find meaningful jobs for a whole year’s worth of young people.

I guess @LadyGreySpillsTheTea the incentives & benefits aren’t enough to attract more. How long do you have to sign up for?

That sounds like a resurrection of Rishi Sunak's ill conceived idea - if you're going to do this properly, it will cost a great deal of money. Taking people who do not want to do national service from their lives - jobs, studies, family - needs to be very well paid in order for it to work. As an investment in upskilling people it could work, but the problem is that people always want things on the cheap.

Not all women have kids, so while we can agree that all conscription is wrong, an exemption due to caring responsibilities should apply equally.

Too? You want to bring in mandatory head shaving in the military? For men and women? Why?

Firstly I don't agree with national service for anyone.

Last time we had national service, recruits did actually go on active service in the Korean war, so it's not that different from conscription.

Secondly during WW2 where conscription could possibly be justified, women were conscripted, albeit not to front line service. Nevertheless women died serving in logistics, medical etc.

Thirdly, I am the type of feminist who doesn't think feminism should mean equality in all things. Because the sexes are biologically different and we can't just legislate that away. So until men can give birth, then no women shouldn't be made to serve in the forces, although I would support women who want to, to have all the opportunities men have.

Let's face it, it's unworkable, as a woman who really doesn't want to serve can become pregnant and noone is going to make a pregnant woman serve. Nor should we be wasting reproductive resource in that way, especially considering our falling birth rate.

It's always been that way through history. Womens battlefield is childbirth and even in modern times it can result in significant injuries and sometimes death.

Let’s face it, there would be so many exemptions for mental health issues they’d have a job to fill an army truck with healthy, active, recruits. The whinging and whataboutery would be unreal from the mummies of boys and girls who are only recently allowed to walk home alone.

The social contract between the young and those too old to fight has been broken in the UK.

They could call up the NEETs, if they refuse a job offer.

Good question, and I didn’t know the answer so I asked AI (and then checked the sources for accuracy).

Seems there are two current routes: there is already a voluntary military service scheme, whereby you choose between 6 and 23 months, but the first 6 months are probationary and can be cancelled on either side. I don’t know anybody out of my DCs’ years at school who chose this.

Then there’s professional soldiers (Soldaten auf Zeit), who have to commit to 2 years or more depending on the pathway: so if the Bundeswehr is paying for your degree or training you have to sign up for much longer.

The new law going through parliament would envisage a basic training of 6 months for all young men who pass the fitness test, whatever that involves. Young people are really being fucked over by the older generation: these are the kids who suffered badly from covid restrictions and now they get forced to learn to fire guns? I’m pretty sure they will be allowed to take the non-military alternative, but that’s beside the point.

I would be OK with national service for both boys and girls (with a few different options of what they could do) but not conscription.

Thx @LadyGreySpillsTheTea
its certainly food for thought. Where I live there are probably NEETs that may benefit if it gives them life skills and a purpose. As opposed to doing nothing or ending up mixed up with stuff that’s no good for anyone. Encouraged and paid tho not compulsory as that just wouldn’t work as they’d just cause more trouble.

This is what interests me about the strength of feeling in Germany against this idea. Would Russia invading Poland change their mind I wonder? Is it a case of young people not thinking the threat of Russia / a land war in Europe is real or do they think it is a real threat but they don't mind getting invaded enough to risk dying to avoid it or assume the US will step in ( spoiler: it likely won't).

Like I sort of get why people don't want to have to do combat training but I want to understand what they think should happen in the case of a threat of invasion to either them or a NATO state because it would be a lot easier to stop Germany getting invaded by them helping Poland to not get invaded than to let Poland get invaded and then have to defend German territory.

I can sort of see why Putin is thinking he might just be able to roll the tanks in.

Most are not having babies at 18 though.

This.

Having an army of conscripts does not lead to effective, motivated troops.

Giving (non-conscripted) armed forces recruits better housing and better pay would be more effective.

If they want a reserve army, they should put more money into the reserves/TA. And no one needs their head shaved.

Why?

Bringing back national service, which would be for two years, straight after A-levels or the August after a young person is 18, may be a good idea.
If it was able to be delayed until after university where relevant, this would be helpful.
The reality is that we could end up in another conflict and need strong armed forces provision to defend etc. I suspect this is why places like Germany are introducing national service again. It may also be because there are more feral teenagers who don't seem to have learned discipline earlier in life.

What a ridiculous thing to say. How are these important woman to have these children without men?

Covid flashback

Traumatic at home haircuts? I’m a Sikh, so I was okay, I tried to cut my husbands hair, it was so awful it was amazing.

Sadly I agree and think this would be the primary reason we would be vulnerable to invasion. The public are just so wet and needy, and think they’re more special and deserving than everyone else. No sense of ‘giving’ at all, it’s just take take take.

Will you be volunteering to fight 😁

While Russia is pushing boundaries and the US retreating to sales only of arms countries should they wish to remain independent will need to do more.
Women are already present in modern military, no shaved heads.
Future military will involves more autonomous vehicles such as drones.