Is this effectively bullying going people with SEND into unsuitable jobs?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqlke33

So reading between the lines the below policy about getting young people off benefits into work this is effectively part of the strategy on SEND/welfare spending. The question is what are the young people in benefits.....many will have send an h as autism and ADHD so jobs in construction and hospitality will be completely inappropriate and maybe harmful. Can you imagine the sensitive autistic 19 year old man working on a building site or the highly anxious going women taking on the brutal work culture of hospitality when companies are cutting staff to the bone because of increased employment costs.

Is this a reasonable policy or one to appease reform voters where reform seem to be waging a war against SEND costs?

OP I believe that attitude is a substantial part of why there is a crisis in mental health and unemployment.

Yes, of course bad employers exist and this scheme will have to be carefully developed to support the young people on it. But no one should feel that whole sectors aren’t for them because of their mental health or neurodiversity, and being constantly told they won’t cope becomes self fulfilling.

It really varies with SEND. I know 2 people who are doing very noisy jobs where effects on hearing are something to look out for but they love the noise and another person with autism who works in a role where sensitivity, emotional and social intelligence are qualities needed.
Hospitality can also vary depending on employer and customer volume and type.

Is Neurodiversity the only disability these days?

By far the highest level of unemployed are the visually impaired with just one in ten in work. And likely some of that is because of the attitudes of the OP and her ilk who believe that the disabled shouldn’t be expected to work.

When I first started looking for work it was in an age where it was perfectly legal to discriminate against the disabled, and at that point nobody would give me a job because I’d never had one.

So I did telesales. Before the days of GDPR, we used to do it out of the phone book, so I would take pages home, one of my parents would read out the numbers, I would braille them, take them back into work and call the people.

I hated every minute of it, but when i interviewed for my next job, the fact that I was prepared to actually work, and in any role, was a contributing factor in me getting the job.

Since then I’ve worked in numerous sectors. There are admittedly jobs I am not able to do, waitressing being one of them for obvious reasons. But if I could, I would, if I had to.

No, waitressing or any customer service isn’t always a nice job. But let’s be honest here most people work to earn a living not because it’s a nice thing to do. And they do it because it gives them a sense of self worth and self respect. You don’t get that sitting at home on benefits. Obviously it goes without saying that there are always going to be people who are incapable of work for legitimate reasons, but purely having a disability is not one of them.

I work in customer service now and it can be brutal. Should I not have to face that because I have a disability? What rubbish.

My ( now grown up) son who is ND & has severe dyslexia dyspraxia and very mild learning difficulties. he had a scribber for his exams

he worked in McDonald’s partime while at school & college He stayed there for 5 years
it taught him lots of important skills that you don’t get by just sitting at home

he also did his door safe badge as soon as he was 18 and worked as security for many big festivals inc Glastonbury VFestival Reading Festival and spent one summer in Ibiza working in one of the big nightclubs with his mates and when back home working in security for different clubs and organizations
and university’s

he now works full time in the NHS in the security department. Owns a house and drives ( although it took him 4 times to pass his test 😂) and with his dyspraxia he went through 3 clutches so his car his an automatic now 😂

But he also was accepted by the MOD / civil service to work in the security department a few years ago but chose the NHS

when he has to write up reports he records it on a dictaphone and his boss gets its written up ( not sure who actually does this ) but it’s been the same wherever he had worked

I think one of the main things for him is that I as a parent didn’t think oh he’s ND / austisic so he won’t be able to do much ( although I did have some doubts when he was very young ) I didn’t write him off

but I always had him In kids clubs and activities like boys brigade scouts rugby swimming which helped him massively with his social skills and making friends and I massively over socialised him 😂

even if he didn’t want to go I would say go 3 times and if you don’t like it after that you can stop but by the third time he had settled in and carried on happily leaning new skills
he went on Rugby trips abroad with his Rugby team several times

he picked a sector that suits him perfectly and he found what he’s good at

he has always worked since he was 15 and he’s now 30

DD2 has ASD and ADHD and is 16.

Turns out the bullying, draconian culture meted out by academy secondary schools making well behaved, intelligent, sensitive girls who always did very well at primary school and had almost 100% attendance up to Y6 highly anxious and burned out, and ultimately drop out of school completely, does not apply in most workplaces, or not DD2's in any event. She is doing extremely well in her part time job and hasn't missed a single shift, and FE college also suits her much better.

A big fuck you to academy schools and all who sail in them and espouse their ridiculous methods.

I believe work and routine helps everyone including those who are neuro diverse. People need support identifying their skills, writing applications and doing interviews. Anybody who wants to work should be helped regardless of disability.

I’d say it’s more complicated than that. Those entire sectors aren’t closed off to ND people. I can’t do fast paced customer facing roles (eg waitressing) but there’s plenty else I can do.

my concerns are 1) that disabled people will get pushed into unsuitable jobs to get them off the benefits rolls and then blamed if it doesn’t work; and 2) that employers won’t support disabled people properly and again, blame them when it doesn’t work out. This sort of employment based approach only works if you get the other legs working.

Hospitality is brutal I accept but within construction there are many trades and could be very suitable for someone with “issues”

But actually my dd was fine working at McDonald’s so you can’t generalise (waitressing was a disaster)

Lots of people (with or without SEND) don’t enjoy work, and not all environments are suited to any given personality.

That doesn’t mean that a high percentage of people should opt out and live on benefits. If everyone who wasn’t thriving in the workplace did that there would be nobody left to pay the welfare.

There should be better and more targeted advice for everyone going into work, but the option to live off the efforts of others should be very limited IMO. I’d like to see Remploy and similar organisations come back, so people with disabilities can work in environments where they are safe and supported by qualified staff. If they then realise that they are capable of doing so and their confidence has grown they can apply to better paid roles in the wider sector. Very few people should be paid to sit at home.

I love this post. My dd burnt out in school due to pressure.

You don’t know much about people with neurodiversities do you?

@ChrisMartinsKisskam

love you post, your son has done really well. You are correct in that it’s finding the right job and also not giving up. You described teaching your ds resilience, something I think many lack, try again, perhaps in a different way. Doesn’t work for everyone but trying again is so important

OP needs to think about why she considers being on benefits better than working... I've worked with lots of SEN children who are highly capable and absolutely could contribute. My own child is ASD and I absolutely hope he is able to live a fulfilling life - that includes working . Sitting at home on benefits is far worse for people's mental health than having some challenges at work.

My DD19 has ASD and had an EHCP. It took me months of moving heaven and earth to get her a job because there’s bugger all assistance available. She now has a PT Christmas job in a supermarket. She loves it. Even better it means she has a routine, she washes and brushes her teeth, she eats better meals, she socialises. Her mental health is so so much better. Having work helps her participate in society. There are so many kids getting more and more depressed because they don’t have work and there’s no one to get them their first job. YADDBU. We all need work. Sitting at home and staring at the wall is no good for anyone.

Imv There is a real problem with people confusing mental health illness like depression with neuro-diversity. Many young people are out of work due to depression and anxiety. Being out of society is considered bad for these conditions. There can be an overlap with ND and anxiety etc but there are different needs. It’s not all the same problem.

Patronizing. I have ADHD, late diagnosed but I would have been a SEND kid had i been born 30 years later, I'm a successful professional in a senior role within Care, which can be stressful but so's life!

Also my helper at work has Down Syndrome, he is learning lots of skills (admittedly he’s a volunteer) and he’s latest success was a whole 2 hour shift getting every tea and coffee order correct, I made him a certificate. This may seem so basic but “working“ makes him feel like he belongs. His friend started out volunteering and now has a paid kitchen assistant job at a big office complex with a canteen, yes I am aware that he is good pr for them but those 9 hours of paid work (his support worker sitting close by) made him so happy and part of society.

Indeed, it's very hard to get a foot in the door. DD2 was very fortunate that DD1 had done so well there first, and the business was like "Another like that? Yes please" Then I was worried 😬 😰 because they are such different personalities, but DD2 has done it her own way. Well done to your DD 👏

The closing of Remploy was one of the worst things that happened in terms of support for disabled people.

What a great idea, offering them a chance to learn skills and be a productive member of the workforce.

Construction is full of SEND people. I think the NFB did a report on it recently. Like the rest of the population its about finding out what suits the individual.i hate this othering and pigeon holing of people eg autistic people should work in IT. Someone even said to me factory work would suit my autistic dc as its repetitive! My dc works in a pub.

Tbh the reason hospitality is brutal, especially for someone without the skin of a Rhino, never mind those who are ND or have mental illness is the way people behave, I've said it a lot in these discussions - if we want disabled people, those with ND and mental illness off benefits and working then they are going to have to be accepted, you can threaten the people with poverty and the businesses with fines until the cows come home but it's really down to the customer base, and ime it's not acceptable to be a bit different when you're serving people - and there's only so many "Out the back" roles you can shove people to keep them away from the great and the good.

Genuinely don’t get how someone with adhd couldn’t work on a building site or bar. Really struggling with your point. Let’s go way back and stereotype here a lot of boys were classed as naughty back in the day and likely had had what would now be diagnosed with adhd. A lot of these boys came out of school with minimal qualifications and likely would have been pushed into the construction route and they could do it, in face probably thrive more doing something practical rather than sitting learning. Your point literally does not stand. I’m not a denier of adhd or autism at all, I just believe a lot of people do have them, hence a lot of late diagnosis currently, so therefore unless on the extreme ends it is not a reason to not work.

My son did a supported internship programme last year. They pushed all the students to get cscs cards so they could work in construction sites. We refused. Ds has adhd, autism, dyspraxia. He can barely cross the road properly never mind work on a construction site!