The working world has become ridiculous

[Rothschild]

Recently a manager at my company attended an online meeting in tears because of a minor issue regarding her child's school. She excused herself from the meeting and took a mental health day.

I can barely get hold of anyone at 3pm in my (large) organisation because everyone is doing school pick up. I don't believe they're getting much work done once they've picked up because they become hard to contact, don't respond to messages and won't attend meetings, despite it being their normal working hours.

It's ridiculous. When our children were small we paid for wrap around childcare or for someone to collect. We were available to work between 3 and 4pm and afterwards.

I'm not talking about anyone who has negotiated flexibility or finishes at 3pm, I'm talking about others who are, frankly, taking the piss.

And if I had taken a mental health day every time I'd had some difficulty in my life I'd have hardly worked.

I think that’s fair enough, I’d usually accept a week of paid leave and then either annual leave or unpaid, and then longer for more immediate family.

My point is that the PP suggesting 1 day for a grandparent is absolutely wide of the mark IMO.

@Crikeyalmightyand what happens if you are a teacher for example? You would get the day as they would struggle to cover you without buying in cover. I have two friends who are due to have surgery in the new term- they have been asked to specify how long they will be off for due to cover and that’s really difficult to confirm. It’s a hard job to get last minute time off from.

Yep I realise it’s awkward depending what job you do . Itsa fine balance between empathy and those who do take the pee somewhat -

1 day for a grandparent's death is reasonable. More for a parents or siblings death. More still for a spouses death or god-forbid, the death of a child.

Some people will take the piss regardless though. IMO the best way to get over something like that is to throw yourself back into work to take your mind of it, not stay at home where it is the only thing on your mind.

it wasn't for me. God I ended up nearly cracking up when I went back to work after my father in law died. i was going in every day what i realise now zombie like and it didn't hit me till 2 months later grief is different for everyone but throwing yourself back into work is not the answer.
I wish my work had been more understanding and had empathy as I wouldnt have experienced what I did. and it took at least 2 months at home after to start getting over it

Imagine spending your one wild and precious life shilling for big capital this hard

After a week off when DH died, only because DS 14 had a week off school, I insisted on going back to work because I didn't trust my thoughts if I'd been on my own. He'd retired, so I was used to him being there all the time. I was also haunted by the image of walking into the living room and finding him.

This is a nonsense though because it presumes that those relationships fall into the same hierarchy of importance for everyone. What about people who's parents weren't great and who were raised by an aunt? Or who were the primary carer for a grandparent. What about a parents anticipated and foreseen passing compared to a cousins witnessed murder? It needs to be based on the nature of the relationship and the impact that loss had on the individual. You can't treat people as if they're robots.

"IMO the best way to get over something like that is to throw yourself back into work to take your mind of it"

If you are at the point where you're not coping, not sleeping, not eating, unable to focus because you're devastated then are you in a fit state to undertake the best work? I work directly with vulnerable people, if I was going to work and was making mistakes or not performing that would have a potentially serious implication for those people, same for surgeons. Or bus drivers who we don't want driving us exhausted. I think it's better for people to be off, recover as needed and then be fit to perform when they do return as opposed to coming back too early and then being put on a performance management plan because they aren't ready to be back. And any good employer should be offering support to employees to resource them to recover as quickly as possible.

Bit like that myself as FIL lived next door to us and was always around helping us in for dinner etc, the main point is though grief affects everyone in different ways, your employment should support you - 5 days or 1 day compassionate leave, what ever they offer is not enough, companies should engage with the person and see how they are doing etc as part of their well being. A colleague of mine lost his mother there last year in my current company and i see what help he got compared to what i got in my previous company, the difference was unreal. The support he got was immense compared to what i received, it really helped him and also helped the company as his work didn't suffer too much either.

This is exactly it, you can’t have arbitrary rules based on what relation they are because they don’t fit.

My father could drop down dead tomorrow and I’d want likely zero time off, and I don’t think I’d go to the funeral. Whereas when it was my FIL, I’d spent the last 5 years of his life caring for him and needed some time off.

Things like that should be case by case, but up to a maximum point IMO, so there’s still a threshold but it’s not based on what you would assume anyone’s relationship with the deceased is.

Some people would say that filling your time with distractions in order to avoid your feelings is the worst thing you can do.

Others would not be so easily distracted from their grief and are going to be of no use to anyone trying to work whilst in emotional turmoil.

My friend was a teacher and her husband died. She did attempt to go back but each time it triggered a breakdown and occupational health signed her off. In the end she was off for a year. They say they can't find cover. They can.

For a lot of teachers it's just not worth taking time off ill as you are still expected to plan and often the class is in chaos upon your return!

My work said I could have as long as I needed, I work for an international chain and I feel like it varies from store to store. They also wanted to give a wreath for the funeral but head office refused.

When you’re self employed you don’t have the luxury to take time off for sickness or bereavement you have to get on with it. I wonder if all these people who take advantage of working for the public sector would do so if they were self-employed?

@pilates I'm self-employed, in a job i can't WFH and definitely feel this! I took the total of 0.5 day all year when I had flu so badly it wasn't safe for me to drive.

To the snowflakes in this group who think it’s ok to clock off at 3 pm whilst being paid to work till 5 pm or later, and have time off work to have a tattoo etc. what will it take for you to realise this is unacceptable. You have a contract to work specific hours and your employer pays you for just that. End of. When there is no food in the shops because the farmers, fruit pickers, lorry drivers etc all decide to clock off at 3??? Maybe then you will realise the consequences if it. Or the surgeon performing an operation decides they’re too upset about their fig dying and can’t possibly continue your operation? Because there are consequences. Some people are ridiculous. But society is paying the price

I hope you sent that before work and not during a shift.

People want flexibility and flexibility therefore makes jobs attractive to employees. No-one wants to be timed and clocked in and out, we are not children. Noone is ringing the bell to let us go home for tea. If they did, people would soon leave.
I have work to do and I do my work. Sometimes it means working a bit longer, sometimes it means working a bit less. It always means flexibility round my kids. If people aren't performing or aren't available for key meetings then that's where performance management comes in, it doesn't mean treating everyone like robots, and ignoring the fact that they have lives outside their jobs that sometimes need to take priority.

I don’t mean to scapegoat at all, in fact quite the contrary. We ought to learn what worked well in the past and try to make those things more widely available. However some of these issues are systemic such as lower value of sterling which makes it less attractive for someone to come here as an au pair.

Someone mentioned upthread that people who feel underpaid should look for another role. 25 years ago when I was looking for a new role, companies would pay my travel expenses and then once employer, they’d pay for excellent training on the job (I got my MBA this way). New graduates now are not getting trains or hotels reimbursed and usually pay for their own education, so the wages are not only lower (bear in mind many remuneration packages don’t include benefits of education, professional subscriptions, defined benefit pensions etc) but also it’s expensive to look for new work and unrealistic for those who can’t afford to take time off work for a (I shit you not…) 4-round interview of a few hours each, over 4 separate dates, with a final round including a case study of 2 hours which had a presentation that took a full weekend to prepare.

Clearly you’ve never heard of flexible working policies and TOIL. I start work earlier and finish later and half my unpaid lunch time so I can clock off at 3 on the days I need to do the school run. My employer and I are very happy with this arrangement.

I do think this is a very good point - it’s actually hard to look for another job when in a job these days given the absolute hoops some company’s both public service and private need you to jump through -