Fancy cars for disabled people

[LemaxObsessive]

Motability.

I am sick to absolute death of seeing people saying on various threads, that Motability vehicles are “given” to us disabled people “for free”.

PIP is awarded in 2 separate elements.

1. Daily Living (day to day care needs etc)
2. Mobility

Each element is paid at different rates depending on how affected by your disability you are (and yes, medical evidence is required). However, to be eligible for Motability, you need to be getting the highest rate of the Mobility element. This is currently £77.05 per week (which works out at £308.20 per 4 weeks or £333.88 per month).

When you join Motability you agree for the DWP to give Motability that £77.05 per week instead of it being paid to your bank. If you also receive the Daily Living element of PIP then you will still receive that directly.

You ALSO, in most cases, have to pay an advance payment (AP) for the vehicle. The better the vehicle, the higher the AP. You do not get the AP back.
The £77.05 per week pays for the lease of the car, insurance, roadside assistance, tyres & windshield cover. Disabled people in receipt of the highest rate of the PIP mobility element are already exempt from road tax.

With regards to the ‘fancy’ cars such as BMW, Audi & Mercedes, as you can imagine all of these have a whopping great AP in the multiple thousands of pounds; Which as I said, you don’t get back.
The taxpayer is not paying a penny towards these vehicles besides the fact that Motability don’t currently pay VAT which I believe is up for discussion.

I think a really important point to make here is that PIP is categorically not means tested (even millionaires can claim it, provided their health meets the criteria) and is not paid to replace a disabled person’s income! In other words, people do not live off PIP instead of working, it is paid to cover the added costs associated with being disabled. Costs non-disabled people likely have never even considered, such as cleaners when we can’t do it, basic gardening when we can’t do it, extra electricity for when medical equipment is used at home, ready meals when we’re bed-bound, delivery charges for every single thing we buy because click & collect isn't possible, taxis to work because the bus always already has a wheelchair user on it, along with lots of other small but mounting costs we have zero choice but to pay because the alternative isn’t an option for us. The lowest rate of PIP is just £29.20 per week so we’re not talking big money!

Millions of PIP claimants work full time but crucially, couldn’t do so without PIP and in many cases, without Motability!

As I said above, even wealthy people are eligible to claim PIP to cover the added costs associated with their disability and they can, if they receive the highest rate of the Mobility Component of PIP choose to use Motability. If they want to spend £7,999 plus £77.05 per week to lease an Audi Q4 for 3 years then they can but not many do because it’s a lot of money to have nothing to show for it after 3 years.

So no, nobody is being ‘given free BMWs, Audis or Mercedes’ regardless of what’s being said by anyone!

So no cars for children then? No cars for anyone who isn't allowed to drive for medical reasons?

@BusyBumbling

I applied for a job at my local council. They have the tick logo and claim any one with a disability who meets the minimum criteria will get an interview.

The job was to train as a teacher of the Deaf.

They wanted someone with a teaching qualification, which I have. Someone who had or was willing to get a level 2 BSL, well my level 2 was 10 years previously and I was fairly fluent. My degree is 50% Deaf studies

I had all of the minimum criteria and most of the desirable. I didn't get an interview. I didn't even get an acknowledgement of my application.

I contacted my local councillor to ask why I didn't get an interview.

Apparently it was one of the desirable criteria.

I read the original post in a Trumpian drawl.🤔

Not having a pop at the PP particularly, reading comprehension can be affected by many things; but what people feel after reading an article (or post) seems to be more compelling than any factual information contained in it.

I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘for vanity’

I chose a Volvo becsue it’s a better car than a Dacia. If I were not using motability I would also have made this choice. The Volvo was the car I wanted. I think it’s really normal for people to choose a car they like/want and not just the cheapest most basic of models. I am interested to know why you seem to think disabled people should not make these chocies?

Exactly and then don't forget the assessors who are loosely medical professionals and no nothing about your conditions like to tell you how a consultant specialist you have been seeing for decades is wrong. They also like to make up the most bizzare lies that defy science. Pip isn't given easily especially high rates its only people who have never been through the process and are gullible enough to believe everything they read online who think it is

That is a good question that lots of employers should be asked. I wonder how many disabled people, are readily taken on in the workplace, and RA made for those that need it.🤔

I agree this needs to be looked at and was partly what my question was about.

@Simonjt well you've just answered the question for your mate so don't be so antagonistic. Clearly they can't work. There are certainly people claiming PIP who absolutely cannot work and will never work. It's not these people that my question is directed at as I'm sure you know perfectly well.

@Elleherd thank you for your comprehensive answer and you make some good points about the barriers to work. I should imagine your points about lifts, loos etc are for smaller employers though, there are plenty of large corporations who take these issues very seriously as they know they have a legal responsibility. Some of your comments re "motivation huddles" I completely get but this is also an age thing, not just a disability. I should imagine older, able bodied people also get fed up of the rhetoric.

I think you are correct that many who continue to work were already working when they became disabled and have stayed with their employer. But surely that's where the issue lies? We have a generation of young people coming up who have left school and are not working due to mental health. This is extremely concerning. If they don't get into work as a young person the barriers to employment are only going to get worse. I see friends who are desperately trying to support their dc with this but it's like their children have just clocked out.

Also the areas where unemployment and disability are rife, where they are born into this. Where whole families are disabled and not working. These are the areas of disability benefit that need to be looked at.

@sashh I'm sorry to hear about your experience with the council.

As I understand it PIP is for EXTRA (not shouting, just highlighting) costs of being disabled. A normal car isn't an extra cost, most people need a car.

There's a mobility element of PIP and that is what can be used for leasing a Motability car but only if you are awarded the highest rate. Same for DLA with children.

Travelling is often harder with a disability and public transport can be more difficult to access so taxis etc will be an extra cost.

Not to mention many disabled people also have regular hospital appointments and not always with the local hospital.

Not quite.

Nobody has calculated the additional costs of a disability and then awarded eligible people this amount. It is totally possible that you can be disabled, qualify for PIP but not actually have many additional costs. Conversely it's also totally possible that you are disabled, have quite expensive needs but not meet the threshold for PIP.

Lots of people that use Motability don't need any adaptions at all to be made to the car. I'm sure lots of us have bought a Motability car second hand and it was a completely standard car.

But if they're on a low income because of their disabilities and can't access public transport, it is an extra disability cost

The vast majority of households own a car in the UK. This is especially true outside of London and other major cities. Most households would struggle to function effectively without one. I know I couldn't do the school drop offs, get to my work and everything else I need to do without one.

It is a standard cost for most households and not an additional cost associated with disability unless you need a specific model of car or expensive adaptions.

Rural areas don't have public transport. I don't live rurally but couldn't use public transport to do my work or complete the school runs.

With regard PIP for mental health, depression and particularly anxiety conditions, especially for young people, I actually think giving money to enable people to stay at home not working is the very worse thing we can do for them. This isn't even about the money either. As I understand it, with any anxiety conditions or phobia, ultimately the only thing that works is facing your fears. Giving young people money so they don't have to engage in the world I don't think helps. I would much rather the money spend on PIP was redirected into services working with these kids to get them out of their bedrooms and into the real world. Even if it cost public money twice as much in the short term. We are absolutely failing these young people by just giving them money and leaving them alone.

People choose to live in a rural area. People don't choose to give up work because of their disabilities

I didn't learn how to drive until after my son became disabled. I was able to function effectively without a car before because non drivers tend to build their lives around that such as living on a good bus route, school in walking distance etc which is exactly what I did.

All that changed with my son's disability because suddenly we had constant appointments in different locations. His clinic appointments are often at 9am over 20 miles away.

Public transport became harder and taxis were an absolute fortune.

I appreciate it isn't the same for everyone but it was absolutely an additional cost in our case due to his disability as we managed perfectly fine without a car before and I can't say the same now.

You don't need to give up work to qualify for PIP.

If you live rurally and there is no public transport then being disabled won't impact your ability to access public transport. Everyone needs a car in these areas so it isn't an additional cost of disability.

You are very much in the minority of households. I don't live rurally and could never do the school runs and commute to work using public transport or walking. I live on a 'good' bus route too but it's impossible logistically to do all those journeys in the time required. Getting between the two local schools wouldn't even be possible let alone somehow commuting to work straight after. It would literally take hours and that's with quite regular buses.

If three quarters of households have cars, many more outside of London and 95% of households in some areas then it's very hard to argue that for most households a non adapted, standard car is an additional cost of disability.

The short answer is prejudice.

i became disabled while working. I stayed in my job. I was a teacher.

it was a fucking nightmare. There was a lift. My classroom was on the first floor. The lift broke regularly. For the first couple of years I wasn’t allowed a key to it because it was for disabled students not staff. I had to borrow keys every day.

the disabled toilet was broken and stayed broken for the ten years I worked there until a kid came out as trans and then it became the trans toilet. I used the ladies (which was single cubicle) and needed to carry crutches with me to get into it.

they did exempt me from duties after I took my wheelchair onto the field and couldn’t get off (got stuck in the mud).

it took them five years to work out what to do with me during fire alarms - for the first five years I just ignored them on advice from my manager and when the fire Marshall’s came round I explained that the lift automatically shut off with the fire alarm and I couldn’t walk downstairs.
only when there actually was a fire and they got into a shitload of trouble did they actually sort out what I was to do during a fire.

i applied to get promoted posts at other schools occasionally. Once they realised I was in a wheelchair I’d get interviews but it was clear they had no intention of ever employing me and I didn’t get any of the jobs. Many of the schools I applied to were even less wheelchair friendly than where I worked.

so I never changed school. During Covid it was very difficult - one way systems and the like - and I was often late for lessons because the teachers had to move around each lesson not the kids. My department by that point were used to me and really helped me out but it was clear SLT considered me a nuisance as each time the regs changed (very, very frequently) they had to work out a wheelchair version.

so… yeah.

It is only for those who are awarded the higher mobility rate of PIP or DLA so have been assessed as having high mobility needs. My son is a wheelchair user and the Motability car is a WAV.

Are you actually asking why disabled people are not in work, despite them getting extra money each month? Like seriously? Come on now.

I did state previously that adapted and WAV cars are different but there are a lot of Motability cars that are neither. I know because I've bought one second hand before and looked around a hell of a lot of them and they were all standard cars.

Stats suggest that 40% of Motability cars are for people that use a wheelchair all or some of the time. 10% are adapted for the driver to us. That leaves around half that are presumably standard cars with no adaptions and aren't WAV.

This trail of posts was after I posed the question that maybe mobility cars should only be available to those who need adapted vehicles.

Do you think Motability cars should only be for those who need adaptations and WAVs?

I think if you live in an area where the vast majority of households have cars then it's hard to argue that a standard car is an additional cost of disability. WAV and adapted cars are obviously more expensive than a standard car and not something an average household has to fund.

I can understand the argument. Physical disabilities aren't the only disabilities that can make it difficult or impossible to use public transport as an alternative though.

My experience is only with DLA because I have a child so I'm aware that PIP is likely at least slightly different or maybe completely different with the mobility part.

With DLA, there's various ways a child can be awarded HRM.

The most obvious way is my son - he is physically disabled and can't stand, never mind walk and that's of course automatically HRM.

Other ways for a child to be awarded HRM are through 'virtually unable to walk' and 'smi' which is severely mentally impaired. You may have a severely autistic child who can physically walk in theory but they are a flight risk, willingly run into traffic etc and they are also intellectually disabled so may be 10 and big and strong but are developmentally closer to a 2 year old.

I agree that the child would qualify for HRM and would be much safer and easier for their family to have access to a Motability car if needed to help the child get around.