Charlie Kirk and guns

[Mugfills]

A man has died and that's a terrible thing.

I'd never heard of him, but my sons, neither of whom take a lot of interest in politics generally, did know a lot about him. He was clearly a very skilled politician and debater, and some of the clips I've seen since show a man who could ask some very interesting questions calmly and make (imo) abhorrent positions seem reasonable.

One of the quotes I've seen is

"I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."

So, presumably he included his own life as one of those acceptable costs, or did he mostly mean poor black lives and other people's children?

You may well be right there OP! What I hope is that this will lead to a ban on gun ownership in the US. It won’t stop bad things happening but at least it wouldn’t be so easy!

I think the vast majority of the guns rights activists don't believe it will ever happen to them, or their family, while forgetting that it is someone family.

Like the children shot in a school in Colorado on Tuesday, on the same day as him.

'I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."

I saw this quote too. It's absolutely dreadful that he has been murdered, and I hope they find the perpetrator quickly. What a totally outrageous thing for him to say though - we have to accept some collateral damage, just not me or anyone I care about 🙄

I very much doubt Kirk ever thought he’d be on the receiving end of a bullet. He pretty much fell on the sword he lived on.

Some might argue that the 1500 or so people killed on the roads each year are the cost of allowing people to drive.

I think that part of the irony...
he was a disgusting individual but no one deserves what happened to him.

I think it says something about the state of America that when I saw this my first thought is that probably one of "their own" did it as most American lefties i know are basically scared of guns and that was a highly skilled marksman

Then again I was also very skeptical about the tiny tip of trumps ear incident and was not convinced it was radical lefty extremists either... so maybe i am just a conspiracy loon

There was a lot of people at boiling point in the US and desperate for it to full tilt. America is such a tinder box it really will just needs one wrong "right" thing to tip it over the edge.

But the vast majority of those very sad deaths are the result of an accident. And cars have many built-in safety features.

Very few, if any, go out and buy a car with the sole purpose of killing ( multiple) people.

@Mugfills So, presumably he included his own life as one of those acceptable costs, or did he mostly mean poor black lives and other people's children?

He clearly accepted the risk for himself too. He spent his time speaking publicly with large crowds, often of people who disagree strongly with him, across the US.

Whatever you think of CK, one thing you can’t accuse him of is hiding away for his personal safety.

He also didn’t “die by the sword” that he lived by. He lived by debate. “You argue with me so I shoot you” is not some sort of even trade, whatever you disagree on.

Read up on micromorts.

Also guns are literally designed to injure and kill. Cars are designed to take you to the your mates house and soft play.

Also, huge strides have been made to improve road safety and deaths are reducing. So no, no one has said they're an acceptable cost, quite the opposite.

No one is attempting to make anything about gun laws in the States safer, or reduce the deaths.

It is impossible to ban guns in the US. With an unknown amount of illegal weapons the general public would be stupid to give up their guns.

I presume he did include himself in this. After all he included his own daughter in his views about children as young as 10, who are pregnant by rape, being made to deliver the baby. When asked about if it was to happen to his own daughter, he said she should have the baby. You really have to wonder about the mental health of people like this, so brainwashed by religion/ideology that they would have their own child harmed.

I don't really get the "he never thought it would happen to him" gotcha that some people are coming out with.

He was a guy who spoke in public in America about his controversial political views. He 100% would have known there was a risk he could get shot.

If he’d said the last bit I’d agree. Did he?

He’s talking about a trade off he sees is worthwhile to maintain freedoms he sees as important. That doesn’t make him pro-assassination or pro-gun-deaths, any more than Camille Paglia is pro-rape becuase she said “give us freedom to risk rape”. We can agree or disagree on the subject itself (I’m with Paglia on her topic and against CK on his) without straw-manning.

The level of ignorance of some people is incredible

There are more guns in America than people, last estimate i think was around 400 million guns, the vast majority unregistered.

Any ban on gun ownership in the USA would be doomed to fail because an amnesty to try to get 400 million guns out of the hands of the public would be impossible.

The cultural difference and attitudes between the UK and USA on gun ownership is like night and day. Which means I don't get it, I would hate to live somewhere with such free access to firearms, but if i lived in a country where i knew there were so many guns in the hands of joe blogs, maybe id think differently.

It’s called having principles. I allow my 17 year old daughter out at night on her own, despite the risk that something bad could happen to her, because you have to draw a line somewhere between freedom and safety.

I just wish people would spend five minutes reading and thinking about his arguments before they call him disgusting. I disagree with almost everything he believed but I fully accept that he had different values to mine and was living by those values. This is the reality of a pluralistic democracy but im starting to wonder whether mumsnetters actually don’t believe in democracy.

I go out at night knowing there's (a very small) risk that I could be attacked. I don't support the right of the men to attack me though.

I dont condone any gun violence however I would find it ironic of his death was the catalyst for gun reform when the massacre of young children has been seen as the collateral damage for decades

I personally found his views on sex and gender spot on, and his views on marriage, gun control and abortion abhorrent. I am no threat to democracy, I have never suggested that people shouldn't be allowed to air their opinions, or to vote how they see fit.

@MorrisZapp

I would add to the list of abhorrent views his views on race, homosexuality and anti-vaccination.

He was an extremist

I also don’t accept the argument than gun ownership should continue in the US because there are already so many guns. An individual can go to a shop in the US and purchase military style automatic weapons and individuals like Charlie Kerr advocate for this to continue. By that logic, because there are a lot of guns, people should be allowed to have a lot more guns, and there should be no restriction whatsoever on the types of guns sold, however dangerous, for perpetuity. That doesn’t sound responsible or smart.

Practically speaking, how do you propose getting 400 million guns out of private hands?

Sure ban the sale of new guns, but that wouldn't matter, there are already millions and millions of them on the street, in houses etc.

Point of clarification, it was a 200m shot with a scoped rifle. Thats a trivially easy shot for anyone with even a little bit of shooting experience.

Its worth saying this as the conspiracy theory that 'it must have been a highly trained marksman' is already being circulated.

If you don’t believe radical left extremists exist then unfortunately you’re quite brain washed. Leave the tribal politics behind and see evil is on both right and left. As well as good