Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind pt. 5

[Typicalwave]

New thread

Part 4 here - https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5400564-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind-thread-4?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Originally started by @kittybythelighthouse

Anyone else who wasn't having to work with a malicious psychopath sabotaging babies then.

But ... you're describing a baby crying. Seriously. If there's more by all means add it but otherwise, you've surely got to accept that this isn't remotely unusual?

Circular argument fallacy

I did watch the Panorama programme. They're not explicit about how the calculations were done. You can't just say that anything bad that happens in the whole department while LL is on shift is her fault as if there's nobody else there and she has 100% unfettered access to all the patients. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

For the screaming baby incident you've described there was also another colleague there. If LL was doing something she shouldn't have been (or not doing something) why wasn't the colleague concerned?

I think too, with the screaming baby incident, that it's worth bearing in mind that nurses would not move, pick up or cuddle distressed premature infants, not because they didn't care but because it could hurt them and exacerbate problems.

Standing over a cot is what you would expect a nurse to be doing at this point

Do you not think parents know that babies cry FFS. You're trying your best to minimise everything and I find it very offensive towards these parents who know what they saw. The colleague was obviously there BECAUSE something was wrong. Do you think a parent would leave to take a break if their baby was distressed?

You know very well that's not the issue.

I really have no idea what the issue is then. Baby was distressed, nurses were observing / conferring. What is supposed to have happened?

I think it's worth mentioning in case people read it as, doing nothing to help the baby.

Baby was fine until mum left for a break-she comes back to baby in huge distress and something has obviously happened to baby whilst she's been gone. Lucy was looking after her. And still everyone will say "but no one saw her do anything" yeah because she waited until the minute a parent or other staff member left!

The girl’s mother said that on another occasion she had gone to get a coffee when Letby was taking her daughter’s bloods,

Possibly having bloods taken was distressing for the baby?

Very likely.

Premature babies sleep for over 20 hours a day. When they're woken by / for medical checks and procedures, they're likely to cry.

You really could convict any nurse on this level of evidence.

Is this something another colleague would need to come and check because baby was literally screaming? It's unlikely the mother would remember this so long after if it wasn't unusual-baby G was in hospital months. She didn't know Lucy was a serial killer at the time. It was obviously not a normal cry or reaction to having bloods taken. But once again saint Lucy can do no wrong.

What motivates people to die on this hill, seriously.

Still waiting for your opinion on how she managed the liver injury @Firefly1987 .

And while we're nit picking, do we know if these unplanned extubations meant they were fully out, or just not completely in the correct position?

While my DF was hospitalised and ended up with an NG tube, he had to be x-rayed to make sure it was correctly positioned a few times due to other procedures and it having to be changed etc.

Does this apply to ventilation ? How might one tell if the tube was dislodged? Presumably not all of these babies crashed as a result? Were the tubes fully out, or a bit out? Had the tape holding them in place come off? Exactly what sort of ventilation are we talking about?

Anecdotally my 5 week preemie spent 24 hours in special care immediately after birth, and the nurse took great delight in relating how it was a good sign they could bring him back to me because he kept trying to pull his tubes out. I'm not making this up.

And if you want a real horror story, when my DP was dying and on full life support, he was transferred from one ICU where he'd been isolated due to also having Covid, to the neuro ICU after two weeks. On the way, the portable ventilator fell off the end of the sodding bed and forcibly extubated him, and he had to be re-intubated in the corridor outside the lift, I saw the whole thing, as I was accompanying him. It was utterly traumatic, and there were many apologies. Just throwing that in to illustrate that dislidgement of breathing tubes can happen for many reasons, serial killer being the least likely.

Surely if these dawned extubations were so unusual and so concerning, then someone would have raised questions at the time?

Honestly my brain hurts from the circular reasoning around this issue.

Tell me about the liver. I really want to hear about the liver.

Nurses frequently worked together, consulted, advised. Certainly in tiny rooms like the ones at Chester, two of them standing together over a cot would be nothing unusual or sinister.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Then why was it remembered all these years later.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I'm just quoting what the mother said. If it offends you so much feel free to correct her on what was happening to her baby. I'm sure she'd love to hear your opinions.

Your conclusions on the second nurse are surely your own, though? You are not just quoting what the mother said.

I don't know why you are talking about contacting the parents. Obviously, nobody can or should, and they are greatly to be pitied.

But when their testimony is being quoted as if it supports Lucy Letby's guilt, that is no longer a private matter and it is reasonable for people to query conclusions drawn from that testimony.

Their child was attacked THREE times by Letby and now requires 24hr care. You'd really rather do all you can to discredit the parents than just open your mind to the fact she is guilty? Are you that far down the rabbit hole that that's impossible at this point? In which case I'm wasting my time.

It's also baby G's dad who said they have to avoid all social media-you can see why. They definitely made the right choice there, but they never should've needed to. Those parents should get nothing but support and empathy from everyone not people trying to minimise what they say happened because the only person they seem to care about is Lucy Letby.

Why was baby G fine for 100 days? Including 3 weeks at Chester? Why did she only collapse when Lucy was there?

Still waiting for your opinion on how she managed the liver injury

I would have to refer to the expert testimony. I'm not a doctor. It was an injury so severe as only to be seen in road traffic collisions or abuse. Where else did the injury come from? Why don't the panel even have an explanation for it?

Does this apply to ventilation ? How might one tell if the tube was dislodged? Presumably not all of these babies crashed as a result? Were the tubes fully out, or a bit out? Had the tape holding them in place come off? Exactly what sort of ventilation are we talking about?

Write into Panorama and ask them. The same conditions apply to all staff. They aren't stitching Lucy up to make her look worse.

Anecdotally my 5 week preemie spent 24 hours in special care immediately after birth, and the nurse took great delight in relating how it was a good sign they could bring him back to me because he kept trying to pull his tubes out. I'm not making this up.

So he didn't actually manage to pull his tubes out then, so it's not the same.

And if you want a real horror story, when my DP was dying and on full life support, he was transferred from one ICU where he'd been isolated due to also having Covid, to the neuro ICU after two weeks. On the way, the portable ventilator fell off the end of the sodding bed and forcibly extubated him, and he had to be re-intubated in the corridor outside the lift, I saw the whole thing, as I was accompanying him. It was utterly traumatic, and there were many apologies. Just throwing that in to illustrate that dislidgement of breathing tubes can happen for many reasons, serial killer being the least likely.

I'm very sorry about this but not sure how much it applies to the case in question.

Surely if these dawned extubations were so unusual and so concerning, then someone would have raised questions at the time?

Well you'd think, but like you say no one is expecting there to be a serial killer. No one would leap to the accusation of there being someone dislodging tubes just for fun would they?

When you say “I’m wasting my time” do you mean you actually think that repeatedly posting the same hackneyed arguments and prosecution allegations is going to convince anyone who’s engaged with the evidence in a scientific and critical way? That’s never going to happen, so if that’s your goal you are indeed wasting your time. If your interest is genuine you’d be much better doing some actual research, perhaps give some of the links you’ve been given a try and try to think about why people don’t agree with you.

Baby G wasn't at all fine for 100 days.

Baby G was born at 23 weeks 6 days gestation.

At 23 weeks, 4/10 babies survive to discharge. 1 in 4 who survive are severely disabled, e.g. with cerebral palsy which is what Baby G suffered from. At 24 weeks, that's 6/10 who survive and 1 in 7 who are severely disabled.

Before her incidence of vomiting, which Lucy Letby was charged with causing deliberately, baby G had already had seven bouts of sepsis.

Nobody is saying these infants weren't ill. There is no point in you posting testimony that they were ill and then making out that you are horrified people don't blame Lucy Letby.

You would need to provide the (non-existent) evidence that Lucy Letby had anything to do with their illness. That's what's disputed.

Baby G's mother said that before the baby went to COCH that COCH had been ringing Arrowe Park to get her transferred but she wasn't well enough to go, the mother said she didn't know why they did that, off topic but why would the COCH be ringing trying to get the other hospital to transfer the baby rather than waiting for Arrowe Park to arrange it with them instead? 🤔

I understood that Chester lost money by having baby G treated elsewhere, since she had been scheduled to be born there and transferred out in utero.

’Why was baby G fine for 100 days?’

Christ on a bike. @firefly1987can believetell me you’ve done zero research without telling me you’ve done zero research save for regurgitating total crap youvd read from internet randos. I’m honestly flabbergasted that anyone with even an inch of common sense wouod believe that 23 weekers are fine and should sail through into normal childhood conpletely unscathed as a matter of typical course. I know someone who had a baby under 25 weeks - it was harrowing.

23weeks is right at the edge of survivability and right at the edge of coming out of it unscathed.

And how truly bizarre that COOH would actively hassle a much more capable units to havd her transferred.