Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Thread gallery
33
rubbishatballet · 04/10/2025 11:33

PinkTonic · 04/10/2025 10:54

I kind of stopped wondering about the defence strategy when I had the opportunity to read the transcripts of Evans testimony. I found it extremely difficult to believe that anyone listening found him in any way credible, and that has only been compounded by hearing him speak. It’s since become clear that relying on him rendering his own evidence unbelievable wasn’t enough as we still have frequent examples of people who genuinely seem to believe that prosecution allegations are the truth, and who lack the ability to listen carefully and critically analyse what they are hearing. So Myers gave the jury too much credit. I thought that whilst he clearly understood what was going on himself, he often failed to drive his point home. They needed it spelling out unfortunately and he was rather polite when he exposed the inconsistencies. Also Evans wouldn’t accept anything Myers said even when it was obvious, and he was often allowed by the judge to avoid answering the question and launch into some convoluted and irrelevant speech. I also read that when the jury asked for clarification on something they were given short shrift by the judge even though they are allowed to ask questions.

I think it’s important to note that the CoA judges also found Evans’s evidence to be credible, so it wasn’t just the jury.

There is detailed discussion on this in their Judgment in case anyone who hasn’t yet read it is interested - https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf

eastegg · 04/10/2025 18:31

rubbishatballet · 04/10/2025 11:33

I think it’s important to note that the CoA judges also found Evans’s evidence to be credible, so it wasn’t just the jury.

There is detailed discussion on this in their Judgment in case anyone who hasn’t yet read it is interested - https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf

Thank you so much for posting this. I made the point on one of the older LL threads that it’s absolutely essential reading for anybody putting forward a view on the safety or otherwise of the convictions. Whatever views you have about the case, it is surely inexcusable to hold forth on the safety of the convictions without having read it. I was thinking of posting it here before leaving (because I really don’t want to get involved, I find LL threads quite toxic), so thanks!

Oftenaddled · 04/10/2025 18:51

rubbishatballet · 04/10/2025 11:33

I think it’s important to note that the CoA judges also found Evans’s evidence to be credible, so it wasn’t just the jury.

There is detailed discussion on this in their Judgment in case anyone who hasn’t yet read it is interested - https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf

It's not so much that the CoA found Evans's evidence credible - it's that they found that it was for the jury to judge his credibility, based on a high bar for dismissing an expert witness. They didn't relitigate. Their conclusions are now very much out of date, since they cite causes of death that even Evans no longer supports.

kkloo · 04/10/2025 19:04

eastegg · 04/10/2025 18:31

Thank you so much for posting this. I made the point on one of the older LL threads that it’s absolutely essential reading for anybody putting forward a view on the safety or otherwise of the convictions. Whatever views you have about the case, it is surely inexcusable to hold forth on the safety of the convictions without having read it. I was thinking of posting it here before leaving (because I really don’t want to get involved, I find LL threads quite toxic), so thanks!

I think most, if not all, of us read it several times early on.

I personally never expected her to have a chance at the COA so early on and just saw the application as a formality.

Oftenaddled · 05/10/2025 13:46

kkloo · 04/10/2025 19:04

I think most, if not all, of us read it several times early on.

I personally never expected her to have a chance at the COA so early on and just saw the application as a formality.

Every time I revisit it and see the bizarre random attempt at a gotcha re the father of baby O, my faith in the justice system goes down a notch. I am really surprised at the standard of reasoning these judges are willing to put on public display.

(Defence suggested that Dr Jayaram's evidence on rashes wasn't entirely reliable, since he neither mentioned this in evidence to the coroner nor in the medical notes - only years later in police interviews. CoA judges say:

" Save that the description of skin discolouration did not feature in Dr Jayaram’s clinical notes, we observe in passing that there appears to have been little evidential basis for the allegation implicitly made on behalf of the applicant, that Dr Jayaram had made up this part of his evidence. We also note that no similar allegation appears to have been
made against the father of Baby O who, as set at para 93 above, described his child’s
veins as being “bright, bright blue”.

But Baby O's father wasn't making medical notes or reporting anything to the coroner; neither do the veins appearing bright, bright blue have any relationship to the symptoms Dr Jayaram claimed to see in other babies (he wasn't present for this one).

Since then, of course, the Court of Appeal has acknowledged that Dr Jayaram's testimony on another case could be criticized, we've seen emails suggesting that he misrepresented events in at least one case, and we have an explanation of the child's venous symptoms in the high ventilation pressures used in his case, according to expert reports.

It's an embarrassing instance of "confidently wrong", inserted completely unnecessarily, and suggesting that whoever wrote and approved the document was well out of their depth.

Typicalwave · 05/10/2025 13:52

Oftenaddled · 05/10/2025 13:46

Every time I revisit it and see the bizarre random attempt at a gotcha re the father of baby O, my faith in the justice system goes down a notch. I am really surprised at the standard of reasoning these judges are willing to put on public display.

(Defence suggested that Dr Jayaram's evidence on rashes wasn't entirely reliable, since he neither mentioned this in evidence to the coroner nor in the medical notes - only years later in police interviews. CoA judges say:

" Save that the description of skin discolouration did not feature in Dr Jayaram’s clinical notes, we observe in passing that there appears to have been little evidential basis for the allegation implicitly made on behalf of the applicant, that Dr Jayaram had made up this part of his evidence. We also note that no similar allegation appears to have been
made against the father of Baby O who, as set at para 93 above, described his child’s
veins as being “bright, bright blue”.

But Baby O's father wasn't making medical notes or reporting anything to the coroner; neither do the veins appearing bright, bright blue have any relationship to the symptoms Dr Jayaram claimed to see in other babies (he wasn't present for this one).

Since then, of course, the Court of Appeal has acknowledged that Dr Jayaram's testimony on another case could be criticized, we've seen emails suggesting that he misrepresented events in at least one case, and we have an explanation of the child's venous symptoms in the high ventilation pressures used in his case, according to expert reports.

It's an embarrassing instance of "confidently wrong", inserted completely unnecessarily, and suggesting that whoever wrote and approved the document was well out of their depth.

If I was in family court and suddenly claimed something in that I had not brought up previously despite police interviews, CAFCASS interviews, skeletons arguments etc I know full well I’d be found to not be a credible witness.

OP posts:
kkloo · 05/10/2025 21:25

Oftenaddled · 05/10/2025 13:46

Every time I revisit it and see the bizarre random attempt at a gotcha re the father of baby O, my faith in the justice system goes down a notch. I am really surprised at the standard of reasoning these judges are willing to put on public display.

(Defence suggested that Dr Jayaram's evidence on rashes wasn't entirely reliable, since he neither mentioned this in evidence to the coroner nor in the medical notes - only years later in police interviews. CoA judges say:

" Save that the description of skin discolouration did not feature in Dr Jayaram’s clinical notes, we observe in passing that there appears to have been little evidential basis for the allegation implicitly made on behalf of the applicant, that Dr Jayaram had made up this part of his evidence. We also note that no similar allegation appears to have been
made against the father of Baby O who, as set at para 93 above, described his child’s
veins as being “bright, bright blue”.

But Baby O's father wasn't making medical notes or reporting anything to the coroner; neither do the veins appearing bright, bright blue have any relationship to the symptoms Dr Jayaram claimed to see in other babies (he wasn't present for this one).

Since then, of course, the Court of Appeal has acknowledged that Dr Jayaram's testimony on another case could be criticized, we've seen emails suggesting that he misrepresented events in at least one case, and we have an explanation of the child's venous symptoms in the high ventilation pressures used in his case, according to expert reports.

It's an embarrassing instance of "confidently wrong", inserted completely unnecessarily, and suggesting that whoever wrote and approved the document was well out of their depth.

Yes and also for an appeal they wouldn't have been making an 'allegation' against the father anyway even if they did think he may have remembered wrong because you don't just write a list of all the little things you think may have been wrong, instead it's the bigger things that are potentially grounds for appeal.

NorfolkandBad · 11/10/2025 22:52

A friend pointed me to this new YouTube video - I make no comment about it's accuracy, just passing on the information.

Iamateadrinker · 17/10/2025 11:44

It's gone quiet on here now, @Kittybythelighthouse hope you are ok, I think you were recovering from something? I keep checking on the thread regularly because I have serious doubts about the safety of her conviction which has repercussions for not only LL but the families, health staff and society as a whole

kkloo · 17/10/2025 16:34

Hope you are ok too @Kittybythelighthouse

@Iamateadrinker
I don't think there will be much happening now for a while as they await the result of the CRCC submission.
I don't think there's any new documentaries due to be aired. I know Mark McDonald is going to be having a couple of discussions at events in late October and early November, but I would imagine if he has any new experts or evidence that he's going to hold that back for if this submission fails and they need to try again.

eastegg · 17/10/2025 17:46

kkloo · 17/10/2025 16:34

Hope you are ok too @Kittybythelighthouse

@Iamateadrinker
I don't think there will be much happening now for a while as they await the result of the CRCC submission.
I don't think there's any new documentaries due to be aired. I know Mark McDonald is going to be having a couple of discussions at events in late October and early November, but I would imagine if he has any new experts or evidence that he's going to hold that back for if this submission fails and they need to try again.

That would be an odd approach, and rather unprofessional, but it wouldn’t be the only unprofessional thing he’s done.

kkloo · 17/10/2025 18:25

eastegg · 17/10/2025 17:46

That would be an odd approach, and rather unprofessional, but it wouldn’t be the only unprofessional thing he’s done.

I don't think it's odd or unprofessional, this is an unprecedented case.

It's very possible that after he submitted the case to the CRCC and spoke about the expert panel that even more experts etc spoke to him, and may be preparing more files etc based on their own knowledge.

There has been experts speaking publicly on the matter but I would imagine that there are many multiples of that engaging behind the scenes, and not everyone is getting involved at the same stage.

If the case has already been submitted to the CRCC I'm not sure what is supposed to happen there anyway, whether they keep updating it or wait for it if they need to submit a new one.

Aquarian1965 · 28/10/2025 19:26

Like many here, I was sure 'beyond reasonable doubt' that LL was guilty during and immediately after the trial. I can understand why the jury found her guilty.
However, since then serious doubts have set in for me personally, especially following the info and other evidence made available since reporting restrictions were lifted here in the UK.
I feel sure that the juries during the original trials would have had serious doubts too (perhaps even doubts that were 'beyond reasonable') if they had known what has been revealed since.

kkloo · 09/11/2025 12:19

Criticism here from a former assistant chief constable who drew up the national policy for investigating deaths in healthcare settings.

Cheshire Police are being urged to release strategic decision logs of the Lucy Letby investigation over fears they did not follow correct procedure.
The force has been accused of fixating on Letby and of not following alternative lines of inquiry, or challenging the narrative of doctors at the Countess of Chester Hospital or expert witnesses.
Under the national core investigative doctrine recommended by the College of Policing, forces are instructed to keep an open mind to avoid verification bias.
But Dr Steve Watts, Hampshire’s former assistant chief constable, who drew up the national policy for investigating deaths in healthcare settings, said he was concerned that the force had not sought alternative explanations.

“I followed the Letby trial on a daily basis and I remember thinking, ‘When are they going to get to the evidence?’ and it never arrived. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever,” said Dr Watts, a former vice-chairman of the national homicide working group of the Association of Chief Police Officers.
“The material before the court, in my view, was obtained by an investigation that was unconsciously skewed by confirmation bias.
“At a very early stage, it appears that Cheshire Police decided these children had been injured deliberately, and that Lucy Letby had done it. I find it difficult to call it an investigation; it seemed that it was more an information-gathering exercise to prove that Lucy Letby did it.”

He added: “I’m not a Lucy Letby supporter. I think the issue is wider and there has been an egregious miscarriage of justice. I thought policing was better than that.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/03/letby-police-decided-she-was-guilty-from-the-start/

Typicalwave · 09/11/2025 12:22

kkloo · 09/11/2025 12:19

Criticism here from a former assistant chief constable who drew up the national policy for investigating deaths in healthcare settings.

Cheshire Police are being urged to release strategic decision logs of the Lucy Letby investigation over fears they did not follow correct procedure.
The force has been accused of fixating on Letby and of not following alternative lines of inquiry, or challenging the narrative of doctors at the Countess of Chester Hospital or expert witnesses.
Under the national core investigative doctrine recommended by the College of Policing, forces are instructed to keep an open mind to avoid verification bias.
But Dr Steve Watts, Hampshire’s former assistant chief constable, who drew up the national policy for investigating deaths in healthcare settings, said he was concerned that the force had not sought alternative explanations.

“I followed the Letby trial on a daily basis and I remember thinking, ‘When are they going to get to the evidence?’ and it never arrived. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever,” said Dr Watts, a former vice-chairman of the national homicide working group of the Association of Chief Police Officers.
“The material before the court, in my view, was obtained by an investigation that was unconsciously skewed by confirmation bias.
“At a very early stage, it appears that Cheshire Police decided these children had been injured deliberately, and that Lucy Letby had done it. I find it difficult to call it an investigation; it seemed that it was more an information-gathering exercise to prove that Lucy Letby did it.”

He added: “I’m not a Lucy Letby supporter. I think the issue is wider and there has been an egregious miscarriage of justice. I thought policing was better than that.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/03/letby-police-decided-she-was-guilty-from-the-start/

It all feels too little too late.

OP posts:
TheBeaTgoeson1 · 20/11/2025 22:07

Channel 4 doc was so good.

Wild the lack of credible evidence.

chaosmaker · 23/11/2025 10:12

MD in Private Eye's latest issue provides a good breakdown of things that went wrong from all sides. He said he started off thinking she was guilty but having looked at the evidence, concludes that it is a miscarriage of justice. He's written for weeks about this case and the latest is Part 32 of the LL case.
Given the cover ups with other cases like the Post Office and others, it's amazing that people accept things so readily when as has been said earlier, it's a lot of face saving and arse covering to blame those without power.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page