Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind thread 4

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

With thanks to the original poster @kittybythelighthouse and @Tidalwave for continuing the discussion.

I grew up in a household dominated by emergency services, I also married (for a time) someone in the emergency services.

Peopld who work in these fields (in my experience) where the lives of others are literally in their hands, and not all cases end well, have to move on. They use dark humour, they can be glib, they can at times one across as quite cold, they force themselves to move on and try not to dwell too much - for very good reasons: allowing the horror (and my father described some truly awful stuff to over they years that he’d experienced and had to handle - one I recall well is a call to an accident where the young girl couldn’t be identified her injuries were that horrific) to overcome you renders you useless: there are always more humans needing help and they need competent, capable, calm professionals who aren’t flashing back and freezing or mentally seizing up because they can’t get over the last awful thing they had to attend to.

LL wanting to get back into the game, so to speak, is something that strikes me as perfectly normal - I suppose ig might come as a surprise to people who haven’t known someone working in that kind of environment.

According to @EyeLevelSticktheres a second tamperproof cap that is then used once the pharmacy has filled the bag according to prescription in place of yhd first tamper evident cap pre-filling.

To je this comes across as a typical prosecutorial sleight of hand

Yes. What I've found quite irritating is how the consultants joined in with the suggestion that this was suspicious behaviour from Lucy Letby. Yet there's no indication all of them took time off to deal with the stress of events (looks as if a junior doctor and one of the women consultants did). So why the assumption that a young nurse can't be resilient.

Even when they moved her to a desk job and she was under horrendous stress, weekly counselling etc, she never missed a day's work.

Yes. Exactly.

The old adage of getting back on the horse rings true from a neurological point of view: the longer you leave it, the worse it’s going to be to try to get back on.

Also the robustness of the cellophane (or any of the seals) isn’t relevant - it’s the fact that these devices will have evidently been tampered wit that’s the point - more sleight if hand. Unless we’re really going to belueve that the chain of product integrity is so weak that no one hanging them is going to check for evidence of tampering or failure of bag integrity. M
Theres a whole industry out there built upon the demand for devices to ensure medical products being transported between manufacturers/hospital's to end product users are safe and un tampered with.

It's interesting, because if anyone was taking the prosecution claims seriously, they'd also have been really worried about the air down the NG tube allegations. Babies would be dropping like flies on the non-invasive CPAP ventilation, all over the world. But there's no sign of anyone looking into it, starting a safety campaign...

Josh Halliday - who covered the trial for the Guardian and changed his mind about Lucy Letby's guilt at Shoo Lee's press conference, said that at that conference he felt as if he'd left the world of the trial behind and entered another world.

It's as if everyone on the prosecution side knew, at some level, that they just needed to win a game.

it is a game.

Prosecutors are there to prove guilt - whether they themselves believe the defendant ig guilty or not isn’t relevant.

Your first paragraph - I’m not quite grasping what you’re getting at: I’m probably not reading it right. Can you elaborate please?

I think it’s impossible to say from this transcript exactly what the pharmacist said or showed. If we had the transcript from his evidence that would help.

It does sound from this transcript that he showed the removal of a tamper evident cap but it isn’t clear which cap: the one that is supposed to be snapped off to make additions, or the one that is supposed not to be removable that’s added after additions were made.

It’s also not clear whether the bag(s) had the new caps or the original ones. Some bags will have additives in the pharmacy and others will only be filled by the main filling port (the one that gets permanently clamped). So some bags will have the original tamper evident cap and some the new one.

In my experience, some seals that go over additive ports after use are removable with force, and might be replaceable. But that’s not the case for the PN bags I’ve handled. And doing it through a wrap isn’t really feasible.

My main point here is that any method significantly risks leaving very obvious damage and I can’t see why anyone would risk it.

Oh, sorry.

Evans and the other prosecution witnesses claimed that Lucy Letby must have injected air down nasogastric tubes and babies wouldn't have been able to breath.

But injecting air down tubes would take ages, be very fiddly, and babies would burp it back up or it would be aspirates, drawn out of their stomachs, if they looked bloated. Because hospitals are always on the look out for air in babies stomachs when they are on CPAP, which pumps air into them at a much higher rate than Lucy Letby could have, meaning they swallow it all the time.

Babies don't die of this. There are hundreds of neonates on CPAP in the UK as we speak, and nobody is panicking or suggesting new precautions.

But if people really believed this accusation, like the tampering allegation, surely they'd be taking urgent action?

Ah, yeah. I see what you mean now.

I cannot belueve anyone who gave it five seconds thought wouod belueve it’s possible to inject air into a stomach and if cannot escape, unless yhd escape valves naturally built in to every human are blocked.

Ivd yet to find a single explanation that explains the mechanism by which this wouod be possible without blocking the escape valves.

The bags wouod just be thrown/reported and not used, surely, upon the checks done at hanging found the bag had been compromised somehow

Not just risk it, but successfully achieve this multiple times without ever being seen behaving suspiciously or any reports of TPN bags going missing from previous failed attempts.

You are right. She loved being the first one to break the bad news. She was overheard saying "you'll never guess what!" about the triplet deaths as if it was gossip-this was overheard by her first assessor who had actually failed her for being cold and "not having the qualities to be a successful nurse". She later passed when she played the victim and asked for another assessor due to being supposedly intimidated by the first. She also was seen to be incredibly animated to make up a memory box. Her colleague said she remembered thinking WTF this is not a happy occasion what are you so excited about? And had to be asked more than once to leave a family alone who were grieving in a room she had no reason to be in. Everyone on here will downplay it though!

For a recap of ALL of her odd behaviour-

This is also known as hearsay.

Please post links quoting LL saying ‘You’ll never guess what…insert salacious gossip here

I think Firefly has found a friend.

You've clearly not had time to even watch the video 🙄

I believe I already did earlier in the thread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyz904y0xyo

Ms Lightfoot also told the hearing she overheard an "inappropriate" comment from Letby in the wake of the deaths of two triplets in June 2016 - who Letby was convicted of murdering.
She said she overheard her telling a colleague: "You'll never guess what's happened."
Ms Lightfoot said: "The way she said it seemed like she was talking about some sort of exciting event she had witnessed.
"It wasn't an appropriate response to the death of a child.
"I have never, and I have never since, seen a response like that to a nurse involved in a patient's passing."

Have you read the substack about child D?

Also known as ‘hearsay’

Can you give me the link please?

Surely you know by now that this is a one way street; @firefly1987expects everyone engaging to review her citations but equally any citations anyone else posts will be scoffed at and dismissed without even the most cursory of glances.

I’ll ask again @Firefly1987 we’re is th link that shows LL conversing with colleagues in terms of the way you have depicted her - a salacious gossip: “You’ll never guess what…” happy to be wrong…

I would love to see @Firefly1987 engage with some content that challenges her thinking. I have watched quite a bit of CS2C. I know what the people I don’t agree with think. On a fundamental level you have to do this to fully understand your opponent’s position and therefore engage in good faith.

Firefly, would you be willing to read some of the private eye articles on this case, or listen to John Sweeney’s podcast? We can do a trade. You give us something to listen to/read and we give you something?

‘You’ll never guess what’ is beginning to tread a line so thin an electron microscope would have difficulties defining the stop point - except for the fact no one gives a shit about a person convicted…

Apl I can say is I’m grateful I didn’t end up going into medicine of any kind - health/social care is fraught enough