Thread 30 Starmer - Magic Roundabouts

[DuncinToffee]

Pull up a chair for some friendly chit chat about politics and beyond

Taxes optional but greatly appreciated.

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5395939-thread-29-starmer-paint-your-bandwagon?page=1

There is a diffirence between bashing and being critical.

Your 'rant' is fine

I'm a fully paid up member of the Labour party and the Cooperative Party - the latter is excellent at Comms. However I'm not slavish to the Party and will certainly be critical, as I have been on these threads.

I won't forget what could possibly happen in the future because I value good prospects for my adult children and also my great nieces. I'll certainly remember the chaos of the 14 years of Tory rule.

Edit to add @Namitynamename

I love that you fenced. It’s one of the few sports im fascinated by despite not having a clue what’s going on 😂 Usually I switch off when I don’t get it!
Sorry to hear about the arthritis though.

Swimming is definitely an inclusive sport due to it not being weight bearing. It’s great natural
physio for my ds too.

I walk 5k a few times a week at 5am in all temperatures - I have just never been someone that can run!

This is the new part of the picture that did not exist at the point of Brexit.

The issue that now the EU has a goods problem with the US. Trump is really all about onshoring goods production.

If the US signed a goods and services deal with the UK which has more favourable terms (and on a current trajectory this seems quite likely) then the actual need of the UK to have closer ties to the EU for economic gain is far less. In fact it could stand to be better off in a number of sectors. That effect would/could aggregate over time. It’s also wrong to imagine that Trump is radically different on trade than his predecessors. How he makes his announcements and sets the stage is, perhaps.

Brexit was a foolish decision, but actually the net effect is at Brexiteers wanted. Really the EU would have offer something pretty good to make it worthwhile; being friendly doesn’t really come into imo.

Absolutely!
Trump hit us with 10% tariffs, we have 0% with the EU... and what happens if the Supreme court says Trump hasn't the authority to impose these?

US growth is immaterial if its driven by internal spending and little opportunity for our exporters.

Trump has also proved over Ukraine and his love in with Putin that he doesn't care about our security.

Great news on the Norwegian warship deal, esp for Devonport Dockyard nr me.

But the UK is a services driven economy. We have no effective deal with the EU on services. We would like one.

What happens to the EU goods and manufacturing which exports to the US currently when a nearby country has a lower tariff rate for goods. And that rate is static and the terms predictable. Industry relocates.

The Trump effect is thoroughly dementing a lot of European countries not just EU states. The Swiss have been totally blindsided by the tariffs they have been given.

Give Keir Starmer his due. He has played what looked like a crap hand on trade very well (much better than the Tories who were in principle much more enthusiastic and actually pro Brexit) It places the UK in a position to make progress with multiple countries.

@Namitynamenameyour post reminded me of I read an article from David Allen Green on a (broadly) similar theme earlier this week. The subject was also touched upon in the last thread.
read & weep!
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/law/the-weekly-constitutional/70928/the-uk-constitution-is-more-vulnerable-than-the-us-constitution

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-and-norway-to-establish-new-defence-partnership/

Written earlier this year. Certainly a great deal and partnership.

The EPD will favour the US on services as it has on manufacturing, we can see that with the Govt backing down on Apple.

But any deal is blown out the water shd the SC go against Trump.

The Norway deal on ships is the way fwd, the US is never ever going to buy frigates from UK.

That really would be good.

Just listened to R4 between 1-1.30 and there was a good discussion on how Labour should respond to reform.

but Centered on them stop trying to out reform reform but also stop trying to get voters inside by using some identical language - albeit with a milder message. I found myself nodding along to most points and agreeing with them.

I bet a load if firms with top Tories on their board are already preparing their submissions.

I am trying to understand voters who shunned the Tories and Reform in favour of Labour in 2024, that are now supposedly beating each other over the heads with their Daily Telegraphs to vote Reform.

It seems an odd chemical reaction that needs a lot of external energy.

I'll be very happy if this happens. DS2 has just started a two year postgrad course in Tallinn. He is being significantly disadvantaged financially over his fellow students because we are no longer in the EU. (Another Brexit fuck up). Would be great if there was a chance for funding even for his second year

Do report my alleged bullying to MNHQ

Sorry folks this post has been following me around and interfering w scrolling

I've had the same interference.

They basically said that those moving to reform are mostly disgruntled Tory’s.

Those who voted Labour and are moving away aren’t going to reform - more LD and Labour would be better off aligning renames with greens and LDs more than trying to outrun reform.

That farage focusses on one point immigration which people will buy into all the time they do t feel better off.

But if Labour improve the economy and people’s lives - especially education and health - alongside the work they are doing on immigration - when the crunch time comes they will have more on reform because they are basically a one policy party. (All para phrased).

'It seems an odd chemical reaction that needs a lot of external energy.'

Too much Sun overpowering the brain cell?

They basically said that those moving to reform are mostly disgruntled Tory’s.

Which makes sense. Quite happy for Reform to finish the destruction of the Tory party that Farage publicly made his lifes work.

However while Reform and Tory are fighting each other for a bunch of low-IQ racists (if that isn't a tautology) I struggle to see how that is going to pull in many people who were antipathetic to them in 2024. There will always be a few.

And for all the Farage is the UKs answer to Taylor Swift, we need to remember how many times he failed to convince a single constituency of his worth.

Some of the disgruntled Tory voters are people who shifted from labour to the torys in the past though. So saying they defected from the Tories doesn't always tell the whole story. I don't think you can ignore them.

I was reading some vox pops with people who were protesting outside the hotels. Some of them were saying it was because they were upset about homeless UK citizens being ignored etc (then why not protest homelessness etc). But immigration as framed by Reform is an All Issue single issue. It sort of encompasses all the other dissatisfactions people have.

I am probably being overly negative. But the people saying it will sort itself out on its own feel overly optimistic. I think the problem is people don't feel listened to, but if they are at an anti immigration protest while saying they are there because of frustrations over dental provision or housing what does listening look like? Is it fixing dentist access (for example) or talking rough on immigration but not fixing anything else. Nigel Farage can get by on vibes.

Some of the disgruntled Tory voters are people who shifted from labour to the torys in the past though. So saying they defected from the Tories doesn't always tell the whole story. I don't think you can ignore them.

I was reading some vox pops with people who were protesting outside the hotels. Some of them were saying it was because they were upset about homeless UK citizens being ignored etc (then why not protest homelessness etc). But immigration as framed by Reform is an All Issue single issue. It sort of encompasses all the other dissatisfactions people have.

I am probably being overly negative. But the people saying it will sort itself out on its own feel overly optimistic. I think the problem is people don't feel listened to, but if they are at an anti immigration protest while saying they are there because of frustrations over dental provision or housing what does listening look like? Is it fixing dentist access (for example) or talking rough on immigration but not fixing anything else. Nigel Farage can get by on vibes.

You see? This is where polite discourse becomes challenging. Giving people labels such as ‘low-IQ racists’ is hugely insulting to those who may choose to vote Reform or Conservative, and disagree with current/historical immigration policy. I would argue that the images we (invariably) see of obese, angry men - are not representative, and in any event, they still posess a vote.

As we are all painfully aware, you can over-intellectualise politics. Many vote for those who they believe can make simple but meaningful differences to their daily lives.

For me, the immigration debate is not a huge issue - for others, it clearly is.

What would you call Epping locals who vow not to pay council tax after the High Court ruling?

Who are supported by the likes of Douglas Carswell

https://bsky.app/profile/twlldun.bsky.social/post/3lxp7lxyv6k2f

I’d call him a massive racist!

What a truly despicable post. And poster.

Giving people labels such as ‘low-IQ racists’

Sorry, I'm not really into pandering to any racists. If you are a racist, and I upset you then good.

Did I upset you ?